DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[prezioso73]

Bill-
I removed about 98% of my sand. All that remains is what is under some of the rocks and a little patch for a goby.

 

[Daemonfly]

Been following this thread for a while and I understand the basic workings of a RDSB with only flow on the top of the bucket. Don't think I missed anything, but it is a big thread

I'm trying to get an understanding of the pros/cons of the flow-through version though. I know you'd need the proper low flow, as well as proper depth for it too work properly. But can you have it too deep? Also, I know the water comming out isn't too healthy, but what if it was then fed into a re-gassing tower? Example here: http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/commercial/bio-tower.asp

Also, what if you pumped in fresh air into that re-gasser with an airpump? I'd guess this would help remove any outgassed nitrogen, etc.. from the water faster. If it had a bit of a smell from the RDSB functions, then could just pop on a carbon filter like the ones we use on Skimmer collection containers. I know it may perform somewhat like a wet-dry, which have been argued back & forth as nitrate factories, etc.. but I think the RDSB would completely counteract this problem, plus the water entering it wouldn't have much left over for any nitrating bacteria to feed on anyway.

 

[Fred_J]

I don't think a flow through version would work. The water would basically be flowing through sand until there was virtually no oxygen in it. I'm with Anthony on this, it seems to defeat the purpose. It's the same as a DSB with an undergravel filter (of course at one time I thought the under gravel filter was an amazing invention).

Fred

 

[barryhc]

REEF-DADDY, No need to add air holes unless you are supplying the RDSB with oxygen starved water from another device.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6735138#post6735138 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmmmsushi
someone correct me if I'm wrong but you actually want oxygen running through the RDSB.

You want normal oxygen levels in the water that flows through the container, the "bed" itself ( and bacteria ), takes care of oxygen gradation within the sand bed. It doesn't require any help.

That and the effluent would eventually disolve the sand in the RDSB provided it's not silica.

So, use Silica, or larger grained Araganite, to reduce dissolution.

You would periodically have to add sand to it, thus making the RDSB even less effective.

How does adding sand make the "bed" less effective ?

Originally posted by Daemonfly
But can you have it too deep? Also, I know the water comming out isn't too healthy, but what if it was then fed into a re-gassing tower? Example here:

No such thing as too deep, just a waste of sand and space after 6 to 8". More area equals more processing, more depth will add to longevity somewhat, but will not improve processing.

In a "flow over" type RDSB, the water that exits is almost identical to the water that enters.
It might be preferable to have a vent in the lid to release whatever gasses that could otherwise accumulate, and be reintroduced into the water. This might even be a problem that some people are having with their RDSB. A good question for Anthony.

If it had a bit of a smell from the RDSB functions, then could just pop on a carbon filter like the ones we use on Skimmer collection containers.

I don't think there is anything to remove other than nitrogen, unless the RDSB is in "failure". Nitrogen should not have a noticable smell.

Fred-J, the flow thru version can work, but is a bit more complicated. Read back several pages for a good discussion on "flow over" vs "flow thru" RDSB.

UGF is an amazing invention. Reverse UGF is heading towards a comeback in Reef Keeping !

> Barry

 

[Daemonfly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6746196#post6746196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
In a "flow over" type RDSB, the water that exits is almost identical to the water that enters.
It might be preferable to have a vent in the lid to release whatever gasses that could otherwise accumulate, and be reintroduced into the water. This might even be a problem that some people are having with their RDSB. A good question for Anthony.

I was actually talking about the flow-thru design for the output water. I've read that this isn't the best stuff to be pumping right back into the tank, hence wondering if a re-gessing chamber would be beneficial as a last step. Re-oxygenating the water and off-gassing the nitrogen before going back into the tank. Here & there I've read warnings about how nasty this resulting water can be, but no details, so is it just oxygen deprived & nitrogen filled, or is there something else there we have to worry about?

A tall single pipe for a flow-through version would have a lot smaller footprint, and would seem to work better, space wise, on some of my tanks.

 

[REEF-DADDY]

Thanks Barry.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6746699#post6746699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Daemonfly
I was actually talking about the flow-thru design for the output water. I've read that this isn't the best stuff to be pumping right back into the tank, hence wondering if a re-gessing chamber would be beneficial as a last step. Re-oxygenating the water and off-gassing the nitrogen before going back into the tank. Here & there I've read warnings about how nasty this resulting water can be, but no details, so is it just oxygen deprived & nitrogen filled, or is there something else there we have to worry about?

A tall single pipe for a flow-through version would have a lot smaller footprint, and would seem to work better, space wise, on some of my tanks.

Start here for a very thorough discussion of these considerations.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=23

> Barry

 

[chrisk77]

Great thread!!! Incredibly insightfull. I am building my RDSB this weekend!

I have read throught the part where Anthony discusses that the effluent from a protien skimmer would be preferable for the supply for the RSDB. My question is this: would it be detrimental to the RSDB if effluent from my charcoal reactor was plumbed to the RSDB instead of the protien skimmer. I have an Aqua C Skimmer and plumbing the effluent to the RSDB would restrict water flow; which the manufacturer discourages.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Chris

 

[captbunzo]

That should be fine. I'd suggest a Maxijet powerhead.

 

[Fred_J]

I agree with Paul the charcoal reactor effluent would be fine. The Skimmer idea was just to get clean water to flow over the RDSB without the use of another pump. When I remove one down pipe my skimmer has a return flow way up in the air, like it was made to flow across the RDSB.
I NEED to get moving and find the time to finish setting mine up.

Fred

 

[mmmmsushi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6746196#post6746196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
You want normal oxygen levels in the water that flows through the container, the "bed" itself ( and bacteria ), takes care of oxygen gradation within the sand bed. It doesn't require any help.

How does adding sand make the "bed" less effective ?

I guess I should just not bother anymore.

The point of my saying you want oxygen in the DSB is so the bacteria have it to use up in the denitrating process. As opposed to having little to no oxygen in the water.
Although I did just read that CO2 can be a large component in some cases.

And when you have a functioning sand bed, and you add a layer of sterile sand it takes time for that sand to populate with bacteria. Now you wouldn't be adding sand all the time but it would take some time for the RDSB to return to it's previous denitrating capability.

Therefore a sand bed with a new layer of sand on top is less effective than one that is fully populated with bacteria.

 

[eshook]

mmmmsushi, hopefully you are not getting offended by your "I guess I should just not bother anymore" statement. We are just trying to discuss if this is a viable solution or not.

To answer your first statement the point of a DSB *is* to have a low/no oxygen layer. Without it you might as well just keep a SSB. Its this low/no oxygen layer that provides us with the capabilities we have been discussing. If you would like to disagree with this I would suggest reading the first 26 pages of this thread again because I believe this fact has already been proven. We just need to determine how effective different layers, depths, types of sand, etc are in this system.

For your second statement. Adding sand would make it less effective for a short amount of time (assuming not too much sand was added) because bacteria can populate at astonishing rates. Your correct that it wouldn't work at 100% efficiency compared to not adding sand, but this would be a temporary setback.

This is my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree or agree with this. WHich is the point of this thread to discuss opinions and hopefully end up with a viable solution for nitrate control.

eshook

 

[dannythum]

finally at the end of pages.....very good infor..will give it a shot

 

[mmmmsushi]

*edited*

Nevermind me. I would rather not be involved anymore.

 

[Savatage]

Okay guys. I have spent two days reading this thread all the way through. I was at the beginning of the thread, but was gone for a long time. I have a couple questions and comments.

I have been using Handy Man's Silica Sand in my sump for quite a while now. I have all the healthy stuff. I have had no problem with the bed what-so-ever. If I use a 10 gallong bucket, filled with this same silica, I should be fine????
Yes I know we are not working a DSB. I'm just saying that the silica is smooth and seems to be good grain size, and it won't break down like sand does.

Second question. Can I use the drain from my skimmer to feed the RDSB? It seems to me that the flow would be perfect. Not to sloww and not too fast.

As for my comments: There sems to be a couple people out here who are greatly confusing this RDSB with a plain DSB. Quit it!!!
We are not producing organisms with the RDSB. We are only out to acheive bacteria. Bacteria need no light to survive.

As for the depth of the sand. I agree with the idea that too little can be harmful, due to the fact that it become no good after a short time. I also believe that being too deep will not harm anything. It will only be wasted sand.

I am starting a RDSB in a 10 gallon rubber made container soon. I am waiting for taxes to come so I can get me some HQI-MH, new sand and moving my tank. When this takes place I will set up the system. I will take some photos and keep everyone updated.

 

[Savatage]

I am up for any comments or suggestions from anyone. I've only been in the hobby for a short time and could use a little idea swapping with exacts.

 

[Sm0kin]

from what i have read and understand the flow from the skimmer is good if its is at the right flow. Did have a question but may have alreay missed the answer or reply. There was the one rdsb with the large gravel on top. Is this not a potential prob due to the fact that even with a good flow(lowering the effects of a dsb) organics could still get lodged in between the pieces? With a smooth bed from the finer sand the organics have no where to lodge.

 

[Airman]

Rustybucket,
You were talking about using mangroves. They are an excellent way to export nutrients out of your system. The sand/mud mixture that you would use to grow them would impede the flow of water that is necessary for a RDSB or DSB. The porosity is dependent on the arrangement, size, and shape of individual component particles; the cement between them; and their degree of compaction. I would encourage you to do the mangroves and have separate RDSB. The more diversity in your system the better it can balance itself. :reading: :lolspin: :reading:

 

[samtheman]

"The sand/mud mixture that you would use to grow them would impede the flow of water that is necessary for a RDSB or DSB." How do you know this? The smaller the sand/mud the better?

 

[Fred_J]

samtheman-- I do agree with airman about the sand/mud mixture. I have no evidence as far as a RDSB, except for Anthony's suggestion to use a fine oolitic sand. However eventhough this is not a DSB I believe some DSB principles do apply.
When people keep talking about mangroves it takes me back to my childhood in Tampa. The mangroves were a perfect place to castnet for mullet.
Fred