Dsb's work, what makes them work best?
- Thread starter barryhc
- Start date
npaden
New member
I took some more pics of my tank tonight if anyone is interested.
I'm not a photographer by any means but I thought this pic looked decent:
Here is about the same angle from April 24, 2005:
Here are all the pics - http://www.padens.com/tankpics_1-11-06/index.htm
Again, this is a 4 1/2 year old tank with a DSB and high flow and primarily SPS corals. I did have some issues in the past and have converted from a mixed reef to primarily SPS over that time frame.
FWIW, Nathan
I'm not a photographer by any means but I thought this pic looked decent:
Here is about the same angle from April 24, 2005:
Here are all the pics - http://www.padens.com/tankpics_1-11-06/index.htm
Again, this is a 4 1/2 year old tank with a DSB and high flow and primarily SPS corals. I did have some issues in the past and have converted from a mixed reef to primarily SPS over that time frame.
FWIW, Nathan
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6479905#post6479905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
That's a beautiful amazonian biotope tank, but what are those coral looking things??
They are the ultra-elusive freshwater corals rarely seen by man. Their name is Omagoomabay.
ethanriley
New member
30 GAL DSB WIH 20 GAL TANK REFUGIUM MAG DRIVE CLOSED LOOP 750, 700 GAL RETURN PUMP, SEIO M620 IN TANK AND RIO 1650 POWERHEAD CIRCULATING REAR OF TANK. FLOW FLOW AND MORE FLOW. STARTED WITH 96 WATT ACTINIC AND 10,000K COMPACT FLOURESCENT INCREASED TO FOUR BULBS. THREE INCH SAND BED IN MAIN TANK TWO INCH IN REFUGE WITH A COOKED ROCK PILE NOW UNDER 24 HOURS ON 6500k AND OFF 24 HOUR. COMBINATION CORALS INCLUDE COMBINATION OF POURITES AND ACROPORA ENCRUSTING GORGONIANS AND ZOANTHIDS, HERMIT CRABS BLUE AND RED (ATLANTIC SPECIES). THIS TANK HAS BEEN A CONSTANT EXPERIMENT. I STARTED WITH FLORIDA LIVE ROCK AND FUGI COMBINATION ALONG WITH CARIB SEA ARAG-ALIVE FIGI PINK AND TAHITIAN MOON. I WAS VERY PATIENT AND DIDN'T ADD ANY CORALS UNTIL THE END OF 2005 10 MONTH AFTER START-UP. REFUGIUM WAS UNLIT FOR FIRST TEN MONTHS WITH ROCK "PILE" COOKING IN THE REFUGE. BEFORE ADDING CRABS HAD A VERY HEAVY POD POPULATION POST CRABS HAD TO ADD SOME NATIVE "GRUNGE" TO GIVE PODS SOMEWHERE TO HIDE. I DOSE KALK DRIP TWICE A WEEK AND KENT CALCIUM EVER DAY KENT IODINE EVERY DAY. LIT SUMP AT ADDITION OF CORALS WITH TWO 6,500 K WAL MART BULBS BEAUTIFUL ALGAE GROWTH IN SUMP ON ROCK PILE ELIMINATED ALL ALGAE IN MAIN TANK WITHIN A WEEK OF THIS ADJUSTMENT. I HAVE FOUND THAT FLOW HAS BEEN OF MAJOR IMPORTANCE WITH EACH PUM ADDED I ELIMINATED MORE ALGAE AND PARTICULARLY ANHILATED CYNAO WHICH HAD TWO MAJOR OUT BREAKS THEN DIED WITH THE ADDITION OF THE CLOSED LOOP AND WITH THE ADDITION OF THE LIGHT ON THE REFUGE I HAVE GREAT MACRO-ALGAE GROWTH. I ASO RUN AN AQUA CLEAR BAK PAK SKIMMER AND A PHOS-BAN REACTOR WITH TWO LITTLE FISHES MEDIA. GOOD STABLE CORRALINE GROWTH GREEN PINK PURPLE. I KNOW THIS IS VERY UNORTHODOX BUT IT IS WORKING DSB AND ALL.
CaptainCoral
New member
Yeah, me too! I've wondered about the 'little spoke of merrits' of using the 'reverse flow' undergravel unit he uses. You get passive dissolution of major/minor elements, ph stabillity and buffering all without worry of any excess poop build up. Ya miss out on the de-nitri benefits though.
Dr Shimek's little booklet on DSBs goes into this at some detail. The relevant graph will, with some luck, be back on line.
The bottom line is that some animals are adapted to living on a very precise size of substrate. He gives an example, and the variance in size that was tolerated for good growth, etc, was very small, less than 20%, IIRC. I'll take a look at the booklet.
So for a DSB, I think 0.1mm is a good size. 0.2mm is far too coarse. With too coarse a substrate, the sandbed won't support a number of species of infauna considered critical. A bad bet, would be my bottom line.
"Crash" in the past was used by SPS reefer's when, all of the sudden, their sand bed started releasing phosphates causing problems. It didn't mean that a Hydrogen Sulphide zone caused problems. The definition for this particular thread means (if I recall correctly) a sudden bad occurrence.
Re: Phosphate Fans!
Re: Phosphate Fans!
My question/concern about macroalgae growth and harvest as a means of phosphate export is that if the macroalgae is growing it is getting the phosphate from the water column. And if it is getting phosphate from the water column, doesn't that necessarily mean that there is (or could be) enough to also negatively affect the calcification of stony corals in the tank? Even if the test kit reading shows zero.
joefish, you may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but were you getting PO4 readings when you started having trouble before going BB? I can't help but notice how fast your stonies seemed to have grown in the after pics.
Re: Phosphate Fans!
My question/concern about macroalgae growth and harvest as a means of phosphate export is that if the macroalgae is growing it is getting the phosphate from the water column. And if it is getting phosphate from the water column, doesn't that necessarily mean that there is (or could be) enough to also negatively affect the calcification of stony corals in the tank? Even if the test kit reading shows zero.
joefish, you may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but were you getting PO4 readings when you started having trouble before going BB? I can't help but notice how fast your stonies seemed to have grown in the after pics.
Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
I doubt it, in the vast majority of cases. I understand that Phosphate can inhibit the calcification of corals, but no one has been able to put a number on it.
The commonly stated figure is < .03 for sure, and preferably less than .015, and that is for the values we can rest for with common test kits.
So, it's back to whether your other parameters are good, and if so, then you may need to look into Phosphate.
Even Nitrate has not been definitively shown to be a problem for most corals. It is the "usually associated" Phosphate that is the real culprit.
Did you notice how fast Npadens "stonies" grew from his pics, on the last page? Of course Nathan has a huge refugium on his system, and refugiums grow algae, right? And so if there is phosphate in the water column to grow the algae, then . . . .
> barryhc
Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
I doubt it, in the vast majority of cases. I understand that Phosphate can inhibit the calcification of corals, but no one has been able to put a number on it.
The commonly stated figure is < .03 for sure, and preferably less than .015, and that is for the values we can rest for with common test kits.
So, it's back to whether your other parameters are good, and if so, then you may need to look into Phosphate.
Even Nitrate has not been definitively shown to be a problem for most corals. It is the "usually associated" Phosphate that is the real culprit.
Did you notice how fast Npadens "stonies" grew from his pics, on the last page?
Of course Nathan has a huge refugium on his system, and refugiums grow algae, right? And so if there is phosphate in the water column to grow the algae, then . . . . > barryhc
Re: Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
Re: Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
Randy (he's a wealth on information, isn't he?) puts a few numbers out there in this article...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm
A possibly relevant quote from the article with emphasis added...
Another important issue has to do with the inhibition of calcification by phosphate and phosphate-containing organics. Phosphate is known to inhibit the precipitation of calcium carbonate from seawater.19, 20, 21 Phosphate also decreases calcification in corals, such as Pocillopora damicornis22 and entire patch reefs23 . This inhibition is likely related to the presence of phosphate in the ECF and on the growing crystal surface. Exactly how the phosphate gets in isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t well understood. Nevertheless, the next time you are worried about phosphate levels in your tank, you can think of calcification inhibition in the ECF in addition to the driving of unwanted algae in your tank.
This inhibition of calcification takes place at concentrations frequently attained in reef tanks, and may begin at levels below those detectable by hobby test kits. For example, one research group found that long term enrichment of phosphate (2 mm; 0.19 ppm; maintained for 3 hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.23 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations.24
Re: Re: Re: Phosphate Fans!
Randy (he's a wealth on information, isn't he?) puts a few numbers out there in this article...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm
A possibly relevant quote from the article with emphasis added...
Another important issue has to do with the inhibition of calcification by phosphate and phosphate-containing organics. Phosphate is known to inhibit the precipitation of calcium carbonate from seawater.19, 20, 21 Phosphate also decreases calcification in corals, such as Pocillopora damicornis22 and entire patch reefs23 . This inhibition is likely related to the presence of phosphate in the ECF and on the growing crystal surface. Exactly how the phosphate gets in isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t well understood. Nevertheless, the next time you are worried about phosphate levels in your tank, you can think of calcification inhibition in the ECF in addition to the driving of unwanted algae in your tank.
This inhibition of calcification takes place at concentrations frequently attained in reef tanks, and may begin at levels below those detectable by hobby test kits. For example, one research group found that long term enrichment of phosphate (2 mm; 0.19 ppm; maintained for 3 hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.23 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations.24
