Dsb's work, what makes them work best?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6494671#post6494671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni




UV would likely be more deleterious than ozone because it would kill anything in the water column. Ozone is more selective, and might be tolerated.
I was wondering if ozone would increase the o2 level and speed up the nitrate process and maybe over loading the denitrifying process ?

With UV what are you worrying about killing ?



No stirring, vacuuming only in cases of microbial blooms, if then, and you'll need a selection of the "detritivore kits", etc. There's no species list.

Sorry but that answer for detritivores is way to vague, different stores put different critters in that kit . Could this be why some tanks fail?.




Cyanobacteria is a good warning sign. :) That's not too late, IME. Some phosphate tests on the sand might be good for the truly paranoid. I have to disagree here totally. My sand was pure white , I never had cyano . So why would I get algae on the LR and not the sand ?
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6494694#post6494694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
What size grains do we use for sand ?

>> We're not sure about this yet.

And what type ?

>> Ditto
This is my problem with experts and gurus.I would think this would be the easiest answer.




> barryhc :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495142#post6495142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
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Your html skills are much better than mine. :)

I wouldn't worry about overloading any mechanism with ozone. You might see more effective skimming, which should be fine, and would tend to reduce the load on other mechanisms. The chemistry forum is more help on the expected effects of ozone than I am.

The UV would kill any pelagic larvae from DSB animals, and thus might inhibit their reproduction. Any animal with a planktonic development stage would be an issue.

Hmm, as far as stocking.... Well, sandbeds stocked with two of the detritivore kits, using ipsf.com and inlandaquatics.com, in my case, have been known to work. If you can post links to the other vendors, I might be able to comment on them. Maybe not. The sad but real answer is that a dissecting microscope is pretty handy...

As far as algae on the rock, I would guess that in your case the macroalgae (or whatever it was) was better able to compete for those resources. What type or types of algae did you see?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6494905#post6494905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kbmdale
The change from a wide open ocean to a 100g glass box is huge in itself. The question is are we trying to mimic its natural setting or make our glass eco systems better?

I think that's a big issue. People complain that oceanic studies don't apply to our tanks. Then, the same people turn around and tell people to mimic the environment as much as possible.

All I can say is, "Boy am I doing EVERYTHING wrong". I use sediment sizes that critters "can't" live in on occasion. I siphon solids out my sandbeds on occasion to make my beds last longer.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6494954#post6494954 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
I think that the "change" that I talk about is not the least bit huge, and is in fact as "minimal" as possible, in order to accomodate the largest number of animals that we can, while maintaining as much of the natural reef as possible.
> barryhc :)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but some of your comments misstate my position a bit.

"High flow" is a relative term, and I guess I'd say I don't find any absolute need for covering the sandbed with coarser materials. I can get flow that works for me without such treatment.

I haven't said anything about a "magic bullet" or one way to run a reef. I think I've posted that SSB and BB systems can all work, as examples.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495213#post6495213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
All I can say is, "Boy am I doing EVERYTHING wrong". I use sediment sizes that critters "can't" live in on occasion. I siphon solids out my sandbeds on occasion to make my beds last longer.

There's nothing "wrong" with what you're doing. It's different, and the tank will be different in some areas based on your choices. I don't see any reason the tank can't be successful in most people's definition of the term.
 
As far as mimicing nature, I think we throw that out the door when we mix species from different oceans, so the only thing that can be done is make the best ecosystem you can and hope your critters don't notice a difference.. :)
 
I would agree Bertoni.

I don't have problem algaes and my critters are doing quite fine. That to me is positive.

I understand the positives and negatives of my BB tank. I understand the positives and negatives of my DSB tanks. There are pros/cons with everything in life. If you think that this is not an issue with your reef tank, you are wrong.

Instead of hating....seek to understand.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495199#post6495199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Your html skills are much better than mine. :)

It's just because I know how to cheat. :lol:

I wouldn't worry about overloading any mechanism with ozone. You might see more effective skimming, which should be fine, and would tend to reduce the load on other mechanisms. The chemistry forum is more help on the expected effects of ozone than I am.

The UV would kill any pelagic larvae from DSB animals, and thus might inhibit their reproduction. Any animal with a planktonic development stage would be an issue.
Your smarter then me , whats the term pelargic?I can't see having enough planktnic life to be free floating except for on purpose reasons
Hmm, as far as stocking.... Well, sandbeds stocked with two of the detritivore kits, using ipsf.com and inlandaquatics.com, in my case, have been known to work. If you can post links to the other vendors, I might be able to comment on them. Maybe not. The sad but real answer is that a dissecting microscope is pretty handy...

As far as algae on the rock, I would guess that in your case the macroalgae (or whatever it was) was better able to compete for those resources. What type or types of algae did you see? Check the first page for the pics,. I don't have a lot of pics of it because I wasn't proud of it .
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495293#post6495293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kbmdale
As far as mimicing nature, I think we throw that out the door when we mix species from different oceans, so the only thing that can be done is make the best ecosystem you can and hope your critters don't notice a difference.. :)

Luckily, if we can give them a static salinity, we are Golden. Trying to beat Mother Nature doesn't work.
 
Pelagic means floating free in the water, not dependent on the substrate or proximity to it. A fair number of animals, like most or all corals, have a free-floating stage in their life. So I'd worry that UV would eliminate any such species from the sandbed.

As far as your macroalga or algae (I mean joefish here), post-mortem dissections are pretty difficult. The problem of manually manipulating the substrate could have been a primary issue. I don't know how the sandbed was stocked or the sand particle distribution. For that matter, in the end, as I already mentioned, a BB system might be an easier environment to get rid of pest algae in general. Given that the refugium was causing problems, which I utterly can't understand, I think it'd take some measurements and study of the system to begin to understand what was happening, and how it might have been fixed.

As far as pros and cons of each setup, we've been over a lot of them. They all have ups and downs. I think my sticky in the NTTH hobby on substrates has a reasonable summary for some of the basic approaches.
 
I've excerpted a few sentences from some references. To get the full picture, reading the article is the way to go.

John S Gray, "Animal-Sediment Relationships", Oceanogr. Mar. Biol. Ann. REv., 1974, 12, 223-261, Ed Harold Barnes. Old but still a basic reference.

From page 249, "In general, for each set [of sublittoral data points from the Irish Sea], the coarsest deposits have low diversity [of infauna], the medium grade deposits have the highest, whilst in mud, diversity falls." Epifauna is most diverse in the coarse substrates in this data. Also: "Mixed substrates the highest diversity."

For samples from the North Carolina coast, the results are quite similar, although this section doesn't use the term mud. Instead, he uses the phi scale. If anyone really cares, I can probably look up the scale and convert it to mm. "Mud" in terms of this paper is much finer than the substrates we use.


Donald C Rhoads, "Organism-Sediment Relationships on the Muddy Sea Floor", Oceanogr. Mar. Biol. Ann. Rev, 1974, 12, 263-300, Ed. Harold Barnes.

This paper is more about muddy bottoms than our sandy tanks, but some of the data are still useful, IMO.

For notes on diffusions vs bioturbation for moving compounds in the sand bed: "The relative lack of importance of molecular diffusion compared with biological transport may be seen by comparin the diffusion flux vector (J) for sulphate in the sublittoral muds of Long Island Sound of 4x10-4 g sulphur/cm2/yr (Rhoads, 1972) and the capacity of a population of a common deposit-feeding bivalve, Yoldia iimulata (sp?), in those same muds to transfer vertically 6 to 12 g sediment/cm2/r (Rhoads, 1963)." It continues "The rates of molecular diffusion flux are several orders of magnitude less than vertical transport by infauna benthos." Keep in mind that these quotes cover specific habitats, and the paper notes that these might not generalize to deep-sea muds. (page 276)

As an interesting note: "We have seen that intensive bioturbation or biodeposition results in faecal pellet production, giving a sea floor consisting mainly of faecal pellets, which are available to coprophagous benthos." (page 283)


Douglas G Capone et al, "Microbial nitrogen transformations in unconsolidated reef sediments", Marine Ecology Progress Series, vol. 80, 75-88, 1992.

From Table 4, p. 80, denitrification was "highest in medium and coarse-grained sediments from Bowl Reef incubated in anaerobic conditions." Denitrification did occur in those sediments when incubated with oxygen, though. The highest rate was about 1/36 that of the best anaerobic conditions, though. Some sediments showed higher denitrification under aerobic incubation.

Robert C Adler and Josephine Y Yingst, "Effects of the marine deposit-feeders Heteromastus filiformis (Polychaeta), Macoma balthica (Bivalvia), and Tellina texana (Bivalvia) on averaged sedimentary solute transport, reaction rates, and microbial distributions", Journal of Marine Research, 43, 615-645, 1985.

Starting on page 620: "...so that the total NH4+ production rate is ~26 uM/d at 29 +- 1.0 deg C. The net production rate of alkalinity is ~0.16 meq/liter pore water/day." From page 622: "Si(OH)4 fluxes were lowest in the control tank..." From Table 1, the flux was on the order of roughly 5mmoles/m2/day.

The abstract is a bit more specific: "Most of the NH4+... was apparently oxidized at the sediment water interface... and... results in a major zone of low pH and HCO3- consumption at a rate > 24 meq/m2/d. This should cause substantial dissolution of CaCO3, as shown in previous studies." Not bad, eh? Also, "A zone of elevated Si(OH)4 production is also associated with the redoxcline." Hmm, I thought somewhere there was reference to the source.
 
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I looked up my data from my sandbed, and found the lowest pH measured from interstitial water was about 7.5, the high was 8.2, the more common measurement seemed to be about 7.6, and the water column was about 8.4. The effect of sampling contamination is hard to guess. The measurements were done with an Oakton pHTestr3+.

Okay, I've asked Eric Borneman whether my memory is correct, or I am losing my mind.

Was there anything else I was supposed to look up?
 
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Look up the definition of "losing your mind". You know, just to re-assure your self. :rolleyes:

There have been many times during the past years that it would have been an accurate description to say that I had lost my mind.....
Loosing my mind has been a glorious experience. :spin1:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495199#post6495199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni


The UV would kill any pelagic larvae from DSB animals, and thus might inhibit their reproduction. Any animal with a planktonic development stage would be an issue.


Why would this be different from the use of a skimmer , other then a skimmer rips it from the water and a uv kills it ?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6496989#post6496989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I've excerpted a few sentences from some references. To get the full picture, reading the article is the way to go.

You really need to bone up on those HTML skills. I would love to read the article, but I don't have the book. This is why I come to Reef Central. If I had to buy all these books, especially as far back as a lot of these references go, I surely could not afford the fish and the tank.

John S Gray, "Animal-Sediment Relationships", Oceanogr. Mar. Biol. Ann. REv., 1974, 12, 223-261, Ed Harold Barnes. Old but still a basic reference.

From page 249, "In general, for each set [of sublittoral data points from the Irish Sea], the coarsest deposits have low diversity [of infauna], the medium grade deposits have the highest, whilst in mud, diversity falls." Epifauna is most diverse in the coarse substrates in this data.

Alright, so we need to know what is coarse deposits, what is medium, and what is mud. Then there is the definition of "infauna". Secondly then, is the definition of Epifauna, which are most diverse in "coarse substrates", whatever that is.

For samples from the North Carolina coast, the results are quite similar, although this section doesn't use the term mud. Instead, he uses the phi scale. If anyone really cares, I can probably look up the scale and convert it to mm. "Mud" in terms of this paper is much finer than the substrates we use.

I really care. Please do. We have been "splitting hairs" here to the Nth degree, and without specific numbers to compare, and then execute during tank set-up, we're just blowing smoke.

"Also: "Mixed substrates the highest diversity.

What does this mean, that we can effectively use?

I haven't said anything about a "magic bullet" or one way to run a reef. I think I've posted that SSB and BB systems can all work, as examples.

It's the "Use the Shimek substrate model exactly, or all the infauna is in a kill zone" part that is causing the "hick-up" here, and I sure would like to get on to the "rest of the story" below the Hypoxic zone that we were about to embark upon When this "hick-up" formed a couple of pages ago.

Thanks for the articles Jonathan, see if you can't get that HTML stuff working so we can read more from the sources.

> barryhc :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6495431#post6495431 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni


As far as your macroalga or algae (I mean joefish here), post-mortem dissections are pretty difficult. The problem of manually manipulating the substrate could have been a primary issue. I don't know how the sandbed was stocked or the sand particle distribution. For that matter, in the end, as I already mentioned, a BB system might be an easier environment to get rid of pest algae in general. Given that the refugium was causing problems, which I utterly can't understand, I think it'd take some measurements and study of the system to begin to understand what was happening, and how it might have been fixed.


Yes , but for me I'm not willing to give up trying . So far I have a theory and you are closest to what I believe .


This failure was from advice from experts , experts seem to worry about the super minor details that make them looks smart and not simple overlooked things .


I was hoping that this thread would concentrate more on the direct rights and wrongs of the set up instead of all the scientfic aspects .

Still a great thread though .:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6492963#post6492963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Putting coarser substrates on top is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive, IMO. Often, the goal is to reduce sandstorms, but the larger grains at the top can effectively kill the rest of the sandbed by providing an unliveable environment for bioturbation. So this is the recommended distribution for grain sizes, from Dr Shimek's booklet. I've translated the fractions to decimals, so ignore all the precision:

40% &nbsp&nbsp 0.125 - .0625mm
30% &nbsp&nbsp 0.25 - 0.125mm
15% &nbsp&nbsp 0.25 - 0.5mm
10% &nbsp&nbsp 0.5 - 1.0mm

The rest is > 1mm.

So, the .1 to 1.0mm substrate that I have been promoting is effectively identical to this specification. And don't think that there isn't more than enough of the .063mm stuff in there, if you don't rinse the sand.

Where in the world Jonathan, do you think I came up with the numbers from anyway? ? ? ? ?

And you still want to claim that even as little as a 1/4" of misc. "rubble", like snail shells etc. at the top is going to effectively kill all "fauna" below by restricting bioturbation?

Are you serious?

> barryhc :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6497810#post6497810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
Why would this be different from the use of a skimmer , other then a skimmer rips it from the water and a uv kills it ?

There is a difference. A skimmer completely removes a nutrient from the system. A refugium leaves it in situ, and a UV kills but doesn't remove the nutrients at all. It leaves the remains to be picked up by a skimmer.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6497844#post6497844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish
I was hoping that this thread would concentrate more on the direct rights and wrongs of the set up instead of all the scientfic aspects .

Maybe there are no ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œrightsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ or ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œwrongsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚.

In nature a sand bed can exist anywhere from a wave-pounded beach, where deep sand is in constant motion, to the bottom of an ocean trench, where except for critter movement, the sand grains may have not shifted position in thousands of years.
 
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