Serioussnaps
New member
Steve popularized it....not pioneered it.
Duplex sump concept
- Thread starter Indermark
- Start date
Steve popularized it....not pioneered it.
tikireefer
Member
I was wondering what you guys think about combining a DSB with the benthic zone in a sump. Instead of putting the egg crate on the bottom of the sump, it would sit on 6 inches of sand. Any detritus would then get consumed by the critters in the DSB. So basically it is setup exactly like Mr. Wilson has described, but the entire refugium/ benthic zone would sit on top of a DSB. My only reason for thinking this might be a good idea is the detritus would be less likely to built up under the egg crate since all the little critters in the DSB would be cleaning it for you. Let me know what you think.
Thanks
Thanks
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Sumps are like the flooring in your house. If you want to conceal dirt (detritus), then carpet (DSB) is the way to go. It's out of sight and out of mind. If you go with a bare bottom sump with eggcrate, it's like a hardwood or tile floor. You see every minute amount of detritus, and it can look unsightly, but at least you know where you stand.
One of the advantages a bare-bottom sump has, is the access to detritus that larger macro invertebrates have. Hermit crabs and starfish don't have access to detritus buried in sand. A DSB has excellent detrital breakdown capacity if it's well stocked with bristle worms.
A DSB will work fine under a refugium. The limitations are, a relatively small footprint (compared to the display tank), and a relatively shallow depth (in the case of a "standard" sump).
I don't see a problem in growing macro-algae on top of a RDSB. Some people keep their remote DSB dark to avoid the proliferation of nuisance algae. Macro-algae will out-compete nuisance algae, so there will be no issue.
You could fill a polypropylene (PP) garbage can 3/4 full with sand and maintain 6" of useable grow space at the top. Just make sure you get enough flow through the macro-algae. The sand will be anoxic below the first 2-3 inches.
I enjoy looking at the critters in the eggcrate benthic zone. It adds the diversity of another layer of life. There's no reason why one can't have a refugium over a RSDB as well as one over an eggcrate or rock benthic zone. These methods are a lot cheaper to employ than a new (high priced) protein skimmer or adding ozone (not to say they aren't beneficial).
One of the advantages a bare-bottom sump has, is the access to detritus that larger macro invertebrates have. Hermit crabs and starfish don't have access to detritus buried in sand. A DSB has excellent detrital breakdown capacity if it's well stocked with bristle worms.
A DSB will work fine under a refugium. The limitations are, a relatively small footprint (compared to the display tank), and a relatively shallow depth (in the case of a "standard" sump).
I don't see a problem in growing macro-algae on top of a RDSB. Some people keep their remote DSB dark to avoid the proliferation of nuisance algae. Macro-algae will out-compete nuisance algae, so there will be no issue.
You could fill a polypropylene (PP) garbage can 3/4 full with sand and maintain 6" of useable grow space at the top. Just make sure you get enough flow through the macro-algae. The sand will be anoxic below the first 2-3 inches.
I enjoy looking at the critters in the eggcrate benthic zone. It adds the diversity of another layer of life. There's no reason why one can't have a refugium over a RSDB as well as one over an eggcrate or rock benthic zone. These methods are a lot cheaper to employ than a new (high priced) protein skimmer or adding ozone (not to say they aren't beneficial).
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I know the stuff you're talking about. It would be a good addition. Live rock has lots of surface are for micro-organisms, but larger macro-organisms seem to have more real estate on mesh. The benefit of mesh rolls, is you can easily remove them to seed another tank or control the population. You won't need to harvest them that often. They make a poor choice for nutrient export, but they're great assimilators.
If you can still find them, the old fashioned bioball spheres are also good. They still use them for sewage treatment. Lots of void space with enough surface area for beneficial organisms to attach.
If you can still find them, the old fashioned bioball spheres are also good. They still use them for sewage treatment. Lots of void space with enough surface area for beneficial organisms to attach.
)
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Someone PM'd me to clarify the purpose of the feeding tube in the overflow DSB I use. I'm not sure if I covered that in this thread or not, so I'll share my answer with the rest of the class.
I honestly don't know if it's needed or not. I know it's damn hard to install later on down the road, so I roughed it in for future technology. For now I can use it for measuring dissolved oxygen at each level. I can add a carbon source like sugar of vodka, or I can fill the tube with sulphur pellets.
The big tank I used it on has zero nitrate, so I never got to a point of adding a carbon food source.
The tube allows for passive flow to the lower layers. This way it remains anaerobic, yet a slow water exchange exposes more water to denitrifying bacteria. It's possible that adding the pipe introduces too much oxygen, but the few dissolved oxygen tests I did showed it was still anaerobic down there.
It's the most efficient method of running water through the sand without mechanical means or the introduction of well oxygenated water. The first few inches of sand will house aerobic bacteria that will consume the oxygen before it gets to the lower zones.
If you wanted to play around with the idea, a heat source at the bottom of the DSB overflow (a lamp or MHL ballast under the tank) would cause a thermal water exchange. As the heat rises up through the center tube it takes water with it. As water travels up the tube, new water is drawn from the top, through the sand, to replace the rising water.
Freshwater planted tanks use a similar method of thermal exchange by using heating cables. It provides oxygen to the roots by introducing new water. An undergravel filter would achieve this, but it moves too much water, too quickly, and it becomes a mechanical filter, trapping detritus in the sand.
The access/feeding tube could also be used to give a quick siphon to the bottom of the DSB. You could even use a turkey baster to suck up detritus buildup.
Another concern about DSB's is the buildup of nitrogen gas. A feeding tube will help release some of the trapped nitrogen or sulphur gas bubbles.
To a certain extent, it works like a plenum, only vertical instead of horizontal. Worms and planktonic organisms can use it like an access road. Unlike a horizontal plenum, it can be cleaned, monitored, fed, and it has a free exchange with the system water.
There are new ideas every day that change how we run our tanks. I read a scientific article a while back that proved that one could use a piece of natural cotton as a food source and media for denitrifying bacteria. The study was able to reduce nitrate to zero by running water slowly over or through the organic cotton carbon source. That brings the hobby full circle, back to the days of plastic corner filters with an air line and floss (circa 1955). I think it was Eric Borneman who dismissed the idea, claiming that it would introduce to much organic matter (food) to the tank and cause algae blooms. To my knowledge, nobody has tried it.
Now I'm not saying we all need to run out and use cotton as a nitrate reducing media and carbon source. I'm just trying to illustrate that there's a simple answer out there and we're getting closer. It's a good idea to build your system in a fashion that allows for the implementation of these new ideas.
http://www.wrc.org.za/downloads/watersa/2005/Apr-05/1794.pdf
I honestly don't know if it's needed or not. I know it's damn hard to install later on down the road, so I roughed it in for future technology. For now I can use it for measuring dissolved oxygen at each level. I can add a carbon source like sugar of vodka, or I can fill the tube with sulphur pellets.
The big tank I used it on has zero nitrate, so I never got to a point of adding a carbon food source.
The tube allows for passive flow to the lower layers. This way it remains anaerobic, yet a slow water exchange exposes more water to denitrifying bacteria. It's possible that adding the pipe introduces too much oxygen, but the few dissolved oxygen tests I did showed it was still anaerobic down there.
It's the most efficient method of running water through the sand without mechanical means or the introduction of well oxygenated water. The first few inches of sand will house aerobic bacteria that will consume the oxygen before it gets to the lower zones.
If you wanted to play around with the idea, a heat source at the bottom of the DSB overflow (a lamp or MHL ballast under the tank) would cause a thermal water exchange. As the heat rises up through the center tube it takes water with it. As water travels up the tube, new water is drawn from the top, through the sand, to replace the rising water.
Freshwater planted tanks use a similar method of thermal exchange by using heating cables. It provides oxygen to the roots by introducing new water. An undergravel filter would achieve this, but it moves too much water, too quickly, and it becomes a mechanical filter, trapping detritus in the sand.
The access/feeding tube could also be used to give a quick siphon to the bottom of the DSB. You could even use a turkey baster to suck up detritus buildup.
Another concern about DSB's is the buildup of nitrogen gas. A feeding tube will help release some of the trapped nitrogen or sulphur gas bubbles.
To a certain extent, it works like a plenum, only vertical instead of horizontal. Worms and planktonic organisms can use it like an access road. Unlike a horizontal plenum, it can be cleaned, monitored, fed, and it has a free exchange with the system water.
There are new ideas every day that change how we run our tanks. I read a scientific article a while back that proved that one could use a piece of natural cotton as a food source and media for denitrifying bacteria. The study was able to reduce nitrate to zero by running water slowly over or through the organic cotton carbon source. That brings the hobby full circle, back to the days of plastic corner filters with an air line and floss (circa 1955). I think it was Eric Borneman who dismissed the idea, claiming that it would introduce to much organic matter (food) to the tank and cause algae blooms. To my knowledge, nobody has tried it.
Now I'm not saying we all need to run out and use cotton as a nitrate reducing media and carbon source. I'm just trying to illustrate that there's a simple answer out there and we're getting closer. It's a good idea to build your system in a fashion that allows for the implementation of these new ideas.
http://www.wrc.org.za/downloads/watersa/2005/Apr-05/1794.pdf
dolphinman213
florida guru
duplex sump
duplex sump
i.m still stumped on mr. wilson's design--i see no baffles in your video ---what is stopping the sand from entering the return pump
duplex sump
i.m still stumped on mr. wilson's design--i see no baffles in your video ---what is stopping the sand from entering the return pump
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
There is no sand in the sump to get sucked up by the pump.
There is no need for baffles, as they only limit the volume of water available for evaporation or removal while working on the tank. A sump with baffles requires more exact top-off.
Macro algae and proper skimmer and display drains assure no bubbles make it back into the tank.
The DSB I mentioned is in the overflow box in the display tank. The sand is below the overflow (Durso) standpipes in the overflow box.
There is no need for baffles, as they only limit the volume of water available for evaporation or removal while working on the tank. A sump with baffles requires more exact top-off.
Macro algae and proper skimmer and display drains assure no bubbles make it back into the tank.
The DSB I mentioned is in the overflow box in the display tank. The sand is below the overflow (Durso) standpipes in the overflow box.
Nice to see this thread is still alive and producing good info.
I set up a cryptic zone about 5 years ago when I first got my EcoWheel system up and running. You can just barely see the 5 pieces of 30"x30" eggcrate that I added to the bottom of the filter. (3 are visible behind the ball valve and 2 more just under the bioballs.) What you can't see is an approx 2" layer of a product on the bottom of the filter called Matala (sp?) It's basically a woven matting made up of twisted strands of plastic about the size of "spaghetti. This was specifically added to promote zooplankton growth and to give sediment organisms some additional surface area to colonize.
Obviously, due to it's design it was way more high flow than Tyree was promoting, but still, for all purposes it has worked out well.
The bioballs were an OEM design inteded to cut down on micro bubbles finding their way back to the display, and while they did their job, I found myself constantly dealing with low levels of measurable nitrate.
However, once the eggcrate became colonized with enough fanworms, etc, I yanked the bioballs, which in turn reduced my nitrate levels. The amount of life on the grids also seemed to block nearly all the micro bubbles before they made it back into the tank.
Over the years I have seen severla cycles of life growing on the grids. For several years I had hundreds of aiptasia, which then, just a quickly vanished without a trace. As of late, the grids are a twisted mix of tube worms, bristle worms, sponges, and various zooplankton.
Here is a pic after a few years of growth.
I was not planning on adding another cryptic area to my newest tank, but after reading thru this thread I am now inspired to give it another go. I have a relatively large sump that I can easily retro in a eggcrate/rock rubble dual zone area. I'm still undecided on whether I will actually add a macroalgae refugium to the mix as I actually do have a built in area set aside just for that. That may or may not come to fruition.
Otherwise a big thank you to everyone for a great exchange of ideas that help to keep people thinking outside the box.
Brett
I set up a cryptic zone about 5 years ago when I first got my EcoWheel system up and running. You can just barely see the 5 pieces of 30"x30" eggcrate that I added to the bottom of the filter. (3 are visible behind the ball valve and 2 more just under the bioballs.) What you can't see is an approx 2" layer of a product on the bottom of the filter called Matala (sp?) It's basically a woven matting made up of twisted strands of plastic about the size of "spaghetti. This was specifically added to promote zooplankton growth and to give sediment organisms some additional surface area to colonize.
Obviously, due to it's design it was way more high flow than Tyree was promoting, but still, for all purposes it has worked out well.
The bioballs were an OEM design inteded to cut down on micro bubbles finding their way back to the display, and while they did their job, I found myself constantly dealing with low levels of measurable nitrate.
However, once the eggcrate became colonized with enough fanworms, etc, I yanked the bioballs, which in turn reduced my nitrate levels. The amount of life on the grids also seemed to block nearly all the micro bubbles before they made it back into the tank.
Over the years I have seen severla cycles of life growing on the grids. For several years I had hundreds of aiptasia, which then, just a quickly vanished without a trace. As of late, the grids are a twisted mix of tube worms, bristle worms, sponges, and various zooplankton.
Here is a pic after a few years of growth.
I was not planning on adding another cryptic area to my newest tank, but after reading thru this thread I am now inspired to give it another go. I have a relatively large sump that I can easily retro in a eggcrate/rock rubble dual zone area. I'm still undecided on whether I will actually add a macroalgae refugium to the mix as I actually do have a built in area set aside just for that. That may or may not come to fruition.
Otherwise a big thank you to everyone for a great exchange of ideas that help to keep people thinking outside the box.
Brett
Last edited:
Chris you got a PM
Bret
Bret
Indermark
New member
When I get some time to add some photos to photobucket I will add some of my setup its almost a year old. I have thought about turning my sump into a refugium but have held it off since the life in my sump is going crazy. heres just two pictures I found on my photobucket account.
Indermark
New member
the pictures I just posted are a little out dated as my sump looks even cooler now. I have feather dusters galore, of all sizes. Some are all white, white with pink dots and I have a few red ones. I have sponges every where on the rocks and glass. My computer is old and my camera software will not run on windows 98.
13threefmaniac
New member
Great read everybody. Its threads like these that make RC such an invaluable source of information. One question for the pros though. Do the critters that inhabit these bethnic zones actually aid n filtration and nutrient export?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The denizens of the benthic zone have absolutely no nutrient export value, as we aren't harvesting them. They grow far too slowly to be harvested periodically. One could harvest the soft casing of large feather duster worms to export the sediment and heavy metals, but I don't think it would remove any more than what you would experience with a mechanical filter and carbon.
Their value as a method of filtration lies in assimilation, and dissimilation. They exist due to an excess of nutrients. They consume these nutrients and convert them to lesser compounds. Yes, some of these compounds are in the form of nitrate, but a very insignificant amount. Every living organism in your aquarium is contributing to the nitrogen cycle. Benthic invertebrates are one of the positive contributors.
Excess nutrients are consumed by benthic invertebrates instead of nuisance algae or other pests like hydroids. It's a parallel process to that carried out by a refugium. Every organism has its' own niche. Benthic residents like snails and bristle worms, are detrivores. Others, like fan worms, tunicates, and sponges are filter feeders. All of these waste reducers, are considered water polishers.
fishoutawater
New member
Wow! Great read, close to setting up my first reef tank. Every so often I find an idea that just makes my giddy when I think about incorporating it into my build, this is one. Thanks all for the great thread.
13threefmaniac
New member
By nutrient export i meant consumption/assimilation of nuthients in the water column. Thanks for the clarification though. I have noticed that tube worms , sponges and the like do multiply rapidly if there is an excess of nutrients. I guess what i'm really trying to ask is whether having a small dedicated bethnic zone is actually going to be of much help? Wouldn't LR in the sump have a similar effect. No lights, lack of predators; therefore creating an ideal environment for bethnic critters? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Mr Wilson.
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