Dying Stonies

[Gary Majchrzak]

Re: Dying Stonies

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10943221#post10943221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
I need help with figuring out why all stony corals in my tank are slowly dying (period of months, very slow recession.. talking a mm every week on some, after thriving, some for 2 years).

I have a few LPS which are also slowly receeding. Soft corals, clams, and fish are all fine and growing.

The recession starts off where the flow is strongest. It is NOT related to light, and it is not a base-up, or tip-down recession. It targets the part of the coral with the most flow.

Here are some early photos of it:

http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/stn/green-stag.jpg
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/stn/big-mille.jpg
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/stn/green-mille-base.jpg
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/stn/green-mille-top.jpg

SPS corals exhibit great Polyp Extension while this is happening. Some of the time, the tissue will receed around a polyp. Eventually the polyp dies/dissapears.

As of late, it has become a bit more aggresive with my big green millepora, and the tissue has been sloughing off. I have video of this. You will see EXTENDED POLYPS attached to tissue, flapping against skeleton. Eventually these will detatch and float around the aquarium. The polyps stay extended while they free-float:
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/stn/detatched_tissue_healthy_color_pe.mov (video is 7.5 megs quicktime .MOV)

Here is my water as tested by Aquarium Water Testing.com:

Ammonia(NH3-4)
Tested: 0.070 mg

Nitrite(NO2)
Tested:0.022 mg

Nitrate(NO3)
Tested: 7.50 mg/l

Phosphate(PO4)
Tested: 0.130 mg/l

Silica(Sio2-3)
Tested: 3.30 mg/l

Potassium(K)
Tested: 502 mg/l

Calcium (Ca)
Tested: 375 mg/l

Boron(B)
Tested: 2.30 mg/l

Molybdenum (Mo)
Tested: 0.20 mg/l

Strontium (Sr)
Tested: 8.760 mg/l

Magnesium(Mg)
Tested: 1155 mg/l

Iodine(I¯)
Tested: 0.050 mg/l

Copper (Cu++)
Tested: 0.030 mg/l

Alkalinity (meq/l)
Tested: 3.430 meq/l



I do not dose anything, and only use a kalk reactor for Ca and Alk. I have no idea why my Potassium is so high, and hope someone with Potassium knowledge, as it effects tissue recession, can chime in and maybe confirm that's what this is. I can only assume the Potassium is coming from my food (frozen mysis, cyclopeeze, and a home made blend).

I also dont know where those silicates are coming from.

I have gone ahead and installed a GFO to take care of the phosphates.

I am using Tropic Marin salt with a brand new set of RO/DI filters (which didnt fix anything). Water was 0ppm TDS before, and still is.

what's your pH range (high/low)? Is your reactor controlled or always on 24/7? If it's controlled, how so?
When did you introduce the Anthias? How do you go about feeding the Anthias? Has any nuisance algae made a sudden appearance? What brand of salt do you use?

 

[HBtank]

The tank does seem pretty sterile to me...

I think I remember reading that you cut down to minimal LR recently? Seems I remember reading about various propagation systems that took a sterile approach due to their very nature, that had similar problems.

I just really just think LR and LS, live anything, buffer in ways we can not always test for at any given time and balance tanks in ways that are not found on a test kit anyways.

If you are going to cut way back in the display, you have to compensate somewhere else IMO.

 

[King-Kong]

Re: Re: Dying Stonies

Re: Re: Dying Stonies

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10953974#post10953974 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
what's your pH range (high/low)? Is your reactor controlled or always on 24/7? If it's controlled, how so?
When did you introduce the Anthias? How do you go about feeding the Anthias? Has any nuisance algae made a sudden appearance? What brand of salt do you use?

Ph is 7.8-8.1. My Kalk reactor is controlled my a pH controller. It was recently callibrated a long with my pinpoint pH monitor.

The anthias are not part of the problem. They are only a couple weeks ago. No nuissance algae.

Salt used to be Tropic Marin Pro, but midway into this issue I tried normal Tropic Marin. It's a brand new bucket from LA.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10954573#post10954573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
The tank does seem pretty sterile to me...

I think I remember reading that you cut down to minimal LR recently? Seems I remember reading about various propagation systems that took a sterile approach due to their very nature, that had similar problems.

I just really just think LR and LS, live anything, buffer in ways we can not always test for at any given time and balance tanks in ways that are not found on a test kit anyways.

If you are going to cut way back in the display, you have to compensate somewhere else IMO.

What does sterile mean to you? To me, it means a lack of nitrogen, causing the corals to slowly fade and eventually wither away. With small traces of ammonia, nitrite, and 7ppm nitrate, there is no shortage of it in my tank. The coral tissue which IS sloughing is dark and vivid -- not brown. They are purples, greens, etc. This tells me my tank is not sterile, but you may have another meaning for that word.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Re: Re: Re: Dying Stonies

Re: Re: Re: Dying Stonies

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10954803#post10954803 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Ph is 7.8-8.1. My Kalk reactor is controlled my a pH controller. It was recently callibrated a long with my pinpoint pH monitor.

The anthias are not part of the problem. They are only a couple weeks ago. No nuissance algae.

Salt used to be Tropic Marin Pro, but midway into this issue I tried normal Tropic Marin. It's a brand new bucket from LA.

pH 7.8- 8.1 inside the reactor or aquarium? How long have you fed cyclopeeze... how much and how often?

FWIW I'm not buying the sterility/bacterial infection suggestions.

 

[HBtank]

This is the shot that caught my eye. Other than your corals and a few rocks to mount them on, you have almost nothing in your system.

I guess sterile = un-natural in my post. I just think you need to up the ante on things we would consider natural., i.e. live rock, live sand and a diverse refugium. My opinion is that it creates a buffer and balance in our tanks that can't be measured by salifert.

JMO, take it as an observation, nothing more. I have the complete opposite of your tank.... So obviously we have different methodologies.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I've seen this happen in what would be considered "very diverse" systems.
I don't believe sterility is to blame here.

KK: how do you maintain Mg?

Magnesium(Mg)
Tested: 1155 mg/l

 

[cutegecko3]

if its your your salt the gfo is likely to with that as will also absorb heavy metals and also the silica.i suspect thats where your potassium is coming from.

 

[kenettson1]

I'm also dealing with the same problem. Thanks for posting this and getting feedback. I have about 3-4 SPS left and they are slowly (over the course of months) withering away. Everything was growing like crazy before this event started happening. I had some football size pieces.... ugh.

I never got to the bottom of it. My solution is to maintain maintenance, test levels, and wait it out until recession stops and growth starts. I guess that's my only real option right now. I'm doing everything else - water changes, rowaphos, grounding probe, calcium reactor.

I've learned that nothing good happens fast in reefkeeping!

 

[cutegecko3]

sorry for my apparent lack to speack english.what i was trying to say is the gfo you added will reduce the silica and heavy metals in your salt mix.but not likely the potassium.youll need to switch salt brands for that.why dont you use reef crystals no one has ever had any problems with using it for extended periods of time.

 

[King-Kong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dying Stonies

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dying Stonies

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10955107#post10955107 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
pH 7.8- 8.1 inside the reactor or aquarium? How long have you fed cyclopeeze... how much and how often?

FWIW I'm not buying the sterility/bacterial infection suggestions.

7.8 - 8.1 is the system pH.

It's a bit on the low side of cause of co2 build up inside the house. It's hot here in Florida, so everything stays locked up. We just had our first cool night here, and i got to leave one window cracked. This morning, the pH is at 8.0.. normally it would be 7.8.

Cyclop-eeze actually isnt fed that often. Maybe 1x every 2 weeks.

Gary; what do you know about high potassium levels causing recession? 'Leonardo's Reef' was very concerned over my potassium levels (wherever they are all comnig from, since I dont dose, and Tropic Marin salt isnt known to have high Potassium). Could some food I'm feeding have tons? Is potassium ever used as some kind of preservative?

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10955226#post10955226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak

I've seen this happen in what would be considered "very diverse" systems.
I don't believe sterility is to blame here.

KK: how do you maintain Mg?

Magnesium(Mg)
Tested: 1155 mg/l

I dont maintain it at all.

The only thing I use is a kalk reactor through top off -- i do not dose anything in the tank besides what is replenishes through w/c's .

TM is a little low in mag, so I have started dosing it after the latest test results.

I mean, the mag was a little low, but I never thought it was the reason for the recession.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10955317#post10955317 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kenettson1
I'm also dealing with the same problem. Thanks for posting this and getting feedback. I have about 3-4 SPS left and they are slowly (over the course of months) withering away. Everything was growing like crazy before this event started happening. I had some football size pieces.... ugh.

I never got to the bottom of it. My solution is to maintain maintenance, test levels, and wait it out until recession stops and growth starts. I guess that's my only real option right now. I'm doing everything else - water changes, rowaphos, grounding probe, calcium reactor.

I've learned that nothing good happens fast in reefkeeping!

But even with all your hard work of trying to maintain, keep clean, and test levels, recession continues -- it's hard to find motivation to do that when the results continue to be death.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10955469#post10955469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cutegecko3
sorry for my apparent lack to speack english.what i was trying to say is the gfo you added will reduce the silica and heavy metals in your salt mix.but not likely the potassium.youll need to switch salt brands for that.why dont you use reef crystals no one has ever had any problems with using it for extended periods of time.

I am not opposed to switching, but TM's Potassium levels are suppsed to be almost spot on with Potassium. I dont know where those high levels would be coming from. It's very confusing.

How does RC mix up at?

 

[kenettson1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10956257#post10956257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
But even with all your hard work of trying to maintain, keep clean, and test levels, recession continues -- it's hard to find motivation to do that when the results continue to be death.

I just got more into fish keeping and less concerned wih corals - for now.

 

[King-Kong]

Man, and you've got top quality hardware, too.

Ever sent a water sample out?

 

[jman77]

Hi Kong,

I think the problem is outlined in your sig ....

"90g+33g sump, bare-bottom. ATI BM250"

You've got water that is too clean. I read similar issues back around 3 years ago with Bubble King skimmers doing this as well. Add a RDSB and maybe shut off the skimmer during the day, or maybe for a whole week to see if your colors start coming back.

 

[Reefski's]

what type of soft corals do you have? chemical warfare may be an issue as well.

 

[King-Kong]

Jman; what is "too clean"? I have 7ppm nitrates, and .130ppm Phosphates. There's also small traces of ammonia and nitrite.

"Too clean" meaning what, exactly? It cant mean not enough nitrogen sources for growth, because the tests showed that's not the case. If anything, I could do well by getting the water even cleaner.

 

[King-Kong]

Reefski: a couple ricordia, and a small amount of zoanthids (not palys). Then 3 clams, and 2 LPS. The rest SPS (montis and acros).

No leathers.