Eat Lionfish!
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reeftanknewbie
New member
I can certainly see everyone's point regarding this very delicate situation and I don't know enough about it to have an opinion yet however I was wondering if they can trap them rather then trying to dive to catch them. Seems very time consuming and expensive to catch them by hand vs. a trap or something of the sorts.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
They don't catch them by hand, in most places they are caught with spears, very effective and easy. Traps are not very selective and always catch other fish.
I'm sure I'll take a beating for my opinion but.... they're not going to destroy our reefs! We have removed so many preditory fish from the reefs (grouper, snapper, etc) that there is actually a void. Yes, jewfish have made a substantial comeback and have repopulated many reefs and wrecks, but there is still a void in the grouper-type fish. The lionfish is non-native. No question. Our way of thinking is that non-native is bad. It isn't necessarily. Snakeheads are not destroying the Potomac watershed. They just fill a similar niche as the bowfin and pickerel. Peacock bass haven't destroyed the florida largemouth bass fishery. They've co-existed. That's what will happen with the lionfish. If I saw one on the menu I would definitely try it. I've heard it's tasty. But over time you will find that that lionfish actually become part of our natural reef environment just as the peacock bass and the tilapia have in the canals in south florida.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
The problem with the Caribbean is that it is no longer a healthy ecosystem. If fishing in the Caribbean was restricted to top predators I would tend to agree with you, but grouper and snapper are no longer common anywhere, and the fisheries has moved on to herbivores. So the middle and bottom of the food chain is also being hit by fisheries and is no longer composed of healthy populations. And now herbivores are being hit by fisheries, the few groupers and snappers left *and* lionfish.
As for lionfish being not native, that also brings another big problem. Caribbean fish have never been exposed to lionfish, and because of this they don't perceive lionfish as being a predator, so don't run away from them as they do from snapper/grouper. Consequently, lionfish is a much more effective predator in the Caribbean.
Your freshwater analogies are not very good either; snakeheads are doing a lot of damage, and the only reason why peacock bass doesn't take over Florida river is because the temperature drops enough every other winter to wipe out parts the (tropical) peacock bass population.
As for lionfish being not native, that also brings another big problem. Caribbean fish have never been exposed to lionfish, and because of this they don't perceive lionfish as being a predator, so don't run away from them as they do from snapper/grouper. Consequently, lionfish is a much more effective predator in the Caribbean.
Your freshwater analogies are not very good either; snakeheads are doing a lot of damage, and the only reason why peacock bass doesn't take over Florida river is because the temperature drops enough every other winter to wipe out parts the (tropical) peacock bass population.
Sorry, but you are incorrect on your assessment of both the snakehead and the peacock bass. The cold temps keep the peacock bass to a very southern range, but does not kill off that population. Largemouth and peacock successfully occupy the same habitat. Snakeheads, while non-native and not desirable, but are not wreaking havoc on the environment. Only in the media.
I also disagree with your assessment of the lionfish on the reefs, but that's fine. We are all welcome to our own opions and makes for better discussions. Scorpionfish haven't killed off all the small reeffish. While they are native they are very efficient preditors. The prey never even sees what hit them. I'm fine with eating the lionfish, but I dont see them being the demise of the reef.
I also disagree with your assessment of the lionfish on the reefs, but that's fine. We are all welcome to our own opions and makes for better discussions. Scorpionfish haven't killed off all the small reeffish. While they are native they are very efficient preditors. The prey never even sees what hit them. I'm fine with eating the lionfish, but I dont see them being the demise of the reef.
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Mark Hixon and Mark Albins from OSU have documented reductions in fish recruitment of nearly 80% on affected reefs in The Bahamas. Among those species affected by the presence of lionfish were 4 of the 5 parrotfish species found in the area. That's a very serious impact, especially on reefs where the herbivores are already struggling to recover from overfishing.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
So, keeping peacock bass and snakeheads in a relatively restricted range is not controlling them? Their impact would be much greater if they could occupy a larger area, as is the case with the Lionfish, which are now in the entire Caribbean and will soon spread to other areas of the Atlantic.
Scorpionfish are efficient predators, but they evolved for millions of years in the Caribbean, even if you don't know how, only the fish that avoid scorpionfish in evolutionary history survived. Caribbean reef fish don't know how to avoid Lionfish because they were never exposed to them, so Lionfish is a much bigger threat than any native fish. The poster above mentions Mark Hixon, I know him personally and also know other people involved in his group, I talked about their results and read their papers. I could go on and on providing tons of evidence to support my statements, but you seem to be pretty much set in your convictions, so all I can suggest is for you to do some google searches and download papers if you can. But please whatever you do, don't downplay the nasty impacts that invasive species have, that is proven over and over again.
Again, I'm sure that you are aware that Snakeheads are not really restricted by temperature or other environmental parameters. They have been in south Florida for years and haven't taken over the southern states yet.
Lionfish have been in the Atlantic for almost two decades now. Have they found a niche? Yeh, probably so. All introduced species do. Is there impact to other native fish on the affected reefs? Sure. Is there impact to a reef when a couple jewfish move onto a wreck? Sure. Is it any less of an impact when it is a native species versus an introduced species? No, but it's natural, right? Lionfish will occupy a niche, the other species will adapt, and this will become the new normal.
Again, I'm not in favor of invasive species but I don't believe it will be the end of our ecosystem any more than I think the jewfish boom will wipe out the lobster populations.
Lionfish have been in the Atlantic for almost two decades now. Have they found a niche? Yeh, probably so. All introduced species do. Is there impact to other native fish on the affected reefs? Sure. Is there impact to a reef when a couple jewfish move onto a wreck? Sure. Is it any less of an impact when it is a native species versus an introduced species? No, but it's natural, right? Lionfish will occupy a niche, the other species will adapt, and this will become the new normal.
Again, I'm not in favor of invasive species but I don't believe it will be the end of our ecosystem any more than I think the jewfish boom will wipe out the lobster populations.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
Of course it won't be the end of the ecosystem, nobody is saying that. What everyone is saying is that it is changing, for the worst. Will reefs survive? Of course they will, they survived the meteor impact that killed the dinosaurs, but thousands of reef species went extinct because of that. I guess if you don't mind a reef with Lionfish as the single top predator (instead of 10-15 species of groupers and snappers) and surgeonfish as the prey (again instead of a diverse assembly of prey species), than invasions don't matter and won't wipe out the ecosystem. But if you are worried about future generations seeing reefs similar to what we see now, then you should worry.
No, Lionfish occupying a niche in the Caribbean is not natural because they are not a native species. The other species may or may not adapt, some will not simply because species require evolutionary time to adapt and 20 years is not evolutionary time.
Snakeheads are not restricted by temperature, when I mentioned the temperature was to illustrate the case of the Peacock Bass, which doesn't spread into northern states (and their populations drastically decrease in Florida winters) because it is a tropical fish from the Amazon. But let's keep this on-topic, Lionfish, if you want more scientific information check this page:
http://coris.noaa.gov/exchanges/lionfish/
An exoctic species will always have a greater impact than a native because it is not perceived as a predator the same way the natives are. In addition, populations of Lionfish in the Pacific are naturally larger than populations of Scorpionfish in the Atlantic. A simple analogy, the top big cat predator in North America is the solitary mountain lion. Say we introduce African Lions (that live in prides and require much more prey than mountain lions) to North America. Even if local prey recognize African Lions as predators, they will have a larger impact than mountain lions simply because they naturally have larger populations (because there is more prey in the place they evolved, Africa).
No, Lionfish occupying a niche in the Caribbean is not natural because they are not a native species. The other species may or may not adapt, some will not simply because species require evolutionary time to adapt and 20 years is not evolutionary time.
Snakeheads are not restricted by temperature, when I mentioned the temperature was to illustrate the case of the Peacock Bass, which doesn't spread into northern states (and their populations drastically decrease in Florida winters) because it is a tropical fish from the Amazon. But let's keep this on-topic, Lionfish, if you want more scientific information check this page:
http://coris.noaa.gov/exchanges/lionfish/
An exoctic species will always have a greater impact than a native because it is not perceived as a predator the same way the natives are. In addition, populations of Lionfish in the Pacific are naturally larger than populations of Scorpionfish in the Atlantic. A simple analogy, the top big cat predator in North America is the solitary mountain lion. Say we introduce African Lions (that live in prides and require much more prey than mountain lions) to North America. Even if local prey recognize African Lions as predators, they will have a larger impact than mountain lions simply because they naturally have larger populations (because there is more prey in the place they evolved, Africa).
greenbean36191
Premium Member
This isn't borne out by Hixon's work, which included reefs with other native predators present.
You don't need "research" to tell you that when predator numbers increase prey decreases. Then you reach equalibrium of prey and predator, whether native or invasive. Divers will tell you that when jewfish move in lobster numbers drop drastically. But it will reach equilibrium. I saw a quote from Hixon in 2008 that stated that lionfish can wipe a reef clean in 5 weeks. That hasn't happened yet.
But back to the point of the initial post - I'd be happy to try eating a good sized lionfish, or capture one for my aquarium. If they are so abundant why hasn't an aquarium-trade based market developed? I'd like to see that happen too.
But back to the point of the initial post - I'd be happy to try eating a good sized lionfish, or capture one for my aquarium. If they are so abundant why hasn't an aquarium-trade based market developed? I'd like to see that happen too.
Agu
Premium Member
It has happened. My LFS always has Lionfish captured in the Keys for sale. Problem is that they reproduce faster than the aquarium trade can absorb the supply.
The only solution is to create a market for Lionfish as a trendy delicacy until it's fished to extinction in the caribbean. The seafood trade has taken other native animals to near extinction, why not do it as a public service ?
Someone needs to get Emeril to cook it on the food network. Look what happened to the redfish when blackening became popular. However, the habit of lionfish doesn't lend itself to easy commercial harvest. If the demand gets too great ($$$) then you have to worry about people destroying the reef to get them. Hopefully the solution won't be worse than the problem.
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Hixon's work paired reefs with ecologically similar fish assemblages. They didn't just look at what happens to recruitment if you add another predator, they looked at what happens if that predator is a lionfish vs. a grouper or other native species.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
I have seen big black volitans on nearly virgin reefs and they were not so abundant despite huge numbers of food fish present.
Something keeps them in check in their own homeland.
The aquarium trade however will not ever make much of a dent in the growing new world population of lionfishes.
The trade is not nearly so much of an extractor of fishes as semi-greens like to think.
The degree of harm the trade is claimed to cause is proportionately linked to the degree that they seek to profit from the alarm.
Steve
Something keeps them in check in their own homeland.
The aquarium trade however will not ever make much of a dent in the growing new world population of lionfishes.
The trade is not nearly so much of an extractor of fishes as semi-greens like to think.
The degree of harm the trade is claimed to cause is proportionately linked to the degree that they seek to profit from the alarm.
Steve
Oh if it was only that easy. If Lionfish went offshore and schooled in massive spawning aggregations so we could catch them all, e.g. redfish. We can only hope to keep a constant dent on the population, but that is it. But they are really good to eat and good for you. As a friend said as we were digging last year, "guilt free seafood".
Here is a paper on controlling them via capture:
A stage-based matrix population model of invasive lionfish with implications for control
James A. Morris, Kyle W. Shertzer and James A. Rice
Biological Invasions
Volume 13, Number 1, 7-12, DOI: 10.1007/s10530-010-9786-8
http://www.springerlink.com/content/ln615l6375555361/
