EcoSystems

I do not agree.
The reefs are nutrient poor if we look just at dissolved nutrients, but if we measure organic matter suspended as particulate and plankton... there's a huge amount of nutrients around corals, always refreshed and renewed by water current.

I'm sorry, but this isn't true of healthy tropical coral reefs. The waters in these areas are crystal clear. The reason they're clear, and you can see such long distances under water, is because they lack particulate matter. There's nothing in the water to obstruct your vision, making the water nearly invisible once your in it.

The whole reason zooxanthellae, and the corals living on these reefs evolved their symbiotic relationship, is because there isn't enough particulate matter in the water to sustain the corals. If there were a "huge amount" of particulate matter in these environments, the corals would most likely still be living without zooxanthellae, just like corals from other, more nutrient rich, habitats do.
 
While there might not be the same level of plankton murking up the water that is seen up north, there is still plenty of plankton in those "clear" tropical waters. Lot's of larval fish, and other larval critters like polychaetes, not to mention copepods. While it's certainly true that corals need their zoox...that just supplies energy (basicall carbs), they still need more nutrition than that. Hence all those polyps, think hungry mouths ;) They wouldn't waste the energy growing those polyps and the nematocysts if there wasn't food to catch.
 
some people see mouths, some see lungs, i mean, how effective is sps corals at catching "food" really?
 
yeah, nematocysts is good for defence, and digestive system is probably very good for eating bacteria.

There is plants with nematocyst, and they dont eat stuff.
 
What plant has nematocysts?

BTW, researchers have done gut content analysis on a variety of SPS corals...typical contents are copepod parts.
 
google Urtica dioica.

Please show a link to a paper showing that analysis, would be nice to read.
 
The stinging hairs on thistle is very different. It is a passive defense, and there is no mouth, gut or other digestive capabilities. The nematocysts of coral are an active prey catching mechanism, as well as being able to be used for defense. Couple that with a mouth, gut, mesentarial filaments used for digestion, and you have the recipe for an animal that eats.

Here's some reading. If you start looking deeper, you can find references to corals eating zooplanktion going back at least to the 1940's.

http://www.coralscience.org/main/articles/nutrition-6/how-corals-feed
http://www.biolbull.org/content/141/2/247.short
http://www.coralscience.org/main/co...-zooplankton-feeding-by-corals-underestimated
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.1975.tb03219.x/abstract
 
I started to look up links for this post, but honestly, I'm just to tired and lazy at the moment. :sleep:


While there might not be the same level of plankton murking up the water that is seen up north, there is still plenty of plankton in those "clear" tropical waters. Lot's of larval fish, and other larval critters like polychaetes, not to mention copepods.

Terms like "plenty" and "lot's" are relative. If we're comparing tropical coral reefs to oceanic deserts, then you're right. If we're comparing them to the vast majority of the rest of the ocean, then they are nutrient poor environments.

Larvae of many of those critters don't survive for long, if they stay near the reef. There's simply not enough nutrients in the water to sustain them. One of the examples you brought up was fish larvae. The majority of these fish larvae that are lucky enough to survive, do so by moving to more nutrient rich habitats, like grass beds and mangrove swamps. That's why these areas are referred to as fish nurseries. They don't survive by hanging out on the reef.

While it's certainly true that corals need their zoox...that just supplies energy (basicall carbs), they still need more nutrition than that. Hence all those polyps, think hungry mouths ;) They wouldn't waste the energy growing those polyps and the nematocysts if there wasn't food to catch.

It's been shown in several corals that were studied, actually digest the zooxanthellae themselves. This means they obtain more than just carbohydrates from their zooxanthellae. They also obtain nutrients like phosphate, nitrogen, and amino acids from the zooxanthellae cell walls.

Corals use their tentacles, nematocysts, and mesenterial filaments, in territorial disputes. Their gastrovascular cavity is used in reproduction and zooxanthellae population regulation. Growing these structures wouldn't be a waste of energy, even if they never used them for prey capture or feeding. The fact that they have these structures is not proof that the coral is actively feeding. Ostriches have wings, but we'd be wrong to assume they were used for flight, simply because they have them.

With that said, I do agree that corals feed. The corals dependence on prey capture would vary depending on species. With virtually all zooxanthellae containing corals, they can not survive on prey capture alone. When a section of a reef bleaches, there's only two options. Regain the lost zooxanthellae, or starve, because there isn't enough nutrients in the water to sustain them. Either dissolved, or in plankton.

Humpback whales come to these clean waters around tropical coral reefs to nurse their young. The whole time they're there, they don't feed at all. Why? Because there isn't enough food in the water for them to feed.

Lots of plankton can't be maintained without lots of dissolved nutrients to sustain them. There can be temporary plankton blooms without high levels of dissolved nutrients, like mass coral spawning events, but these are temporary. In order to maintain lots of plankton, there has to be lots of dissolved nutrients. We can't say that reefs have little in the way of dissolved nutrients, but lots of plankton. This would be like saying there are lots of lions in Africa, but very few wildebeests. It just doesn't work that way.
 
It is so simple...

zooxanthellae can supply mostly carbon obtained throug photosyntesis, some aminoacids and few vitamins.
Nitrogen, phosphorus and all building blocks for growing organic matter are obtained from active catching.
Corals cannot survive on zoox, it is a dog catching its own tail... zoox are a huge competitive advantage as they supply carbon and pump up calcification process, but building blocks need to be found out in another way.
You can observe many azoox corals, but not a single coral without polyps.

Water around reef is not crystal clear, it is filled with phyto and zooplancton, with bacterioplancton, with DOM... ON the reef it is crystal clear thanks to very efficient catching operated by reef organisms.
Corals, as any other filter feeding animals (tridacnid clams, hairworms, etc.) are active predators.
They can survive for weeks in total darkness if adequately fed with zooplankton, but they die if not fed in few days also with strong light. (Yonge, '70s)

Experiments using radioactive particulate and zooplancton showed that corals catch and absorb them, converting them in tissue from 50 to 80% of total weight. (Anthony, 2000)



Corals are not whales.. ;-)
...but it seems that we are going a little off topic...
 
Billsreef: that didnt show very much of gutt contents of sps corals. Most of the papers say "coral eats". Thats not very deep. I think we all know that.
 
that didnt show very much of gutt contents of sps corals.

Coral food is so tiny that the gut content is being digested during the time between sampling and examining.
Thant's why radioactive markers are used... you can keep trace of them.
 
yes, but i was just curius about the statement "BTW, researchers have done gut content analysis on a variety of SPS corals...typical contents are copepod parts."
Copepd does not seem very small at all. And i would like to know how sps coral catch and eat them, as copepods dont swim very much. Or is it the typical way, put a sps coral in still water and add enormus amount of artimea naupli and see how many that gets tangled up in the polyps?
 
since when did galaxea become a sps coral?

I enjoyed the video very much, but it has little to do with sps ability to capure copepods.
 
Copepd does not seem very small at all. And i would like to know how sps coral catch and eat them, as copepods dont swim very much.

Got to get away from just thinking of copepods typically found in our tanks. There are quiet a few copepods species in several different "groups", some smaller than others, and some rather large. There are also copepod nauplii that are even tinier than the adults. Some groups are entirely planktonic and very active swimmers (as far is it goes for something so small). Copepods are typically the most abundant zooplankton found in plankton tows.

An interesting thing to do if you do some night diving on a coral reef is to just sit still with your flashlight and watch what congregates in the light beam....look really close for the small stuff. There is an amazing amount of zooplankton (mostly copepods) that you will see. While yes, there is not the same quantity of plankton (both phyto and zoo) as found in northern murky waters, the reef is not nearly as devoid of plankton as most people (non researchers) think. Yes, the waters are nutrient poor, but what nutrients are there are very tightly recycled. It's the only way the reef can be so productive...right up there with rain forests and estuaries.
 
but, this has nothing to do with the topic about mud, sorry for going way off topic.

I think everything that acts like a phosphate sink that not get replaced is wrong for stony corals. There now we are back on topic ;)
 
No problem going of topic, it's still good reef talk :)

I definately agree with the idea of a non replaceable phosphate sink as a bad idea. At some point it will fill up and no longer function as a sink, so export is going to be needed sooner or later. IMO it's good to start off with a good nutrient export system...harvested algae, skimming, partial periodic replacement of substrates, etc. No absolute one right way, many good methods out there, and many compliment each other quite nicely for a multipronged approach.
 
Yes, the waters are nutrient poor, but what nutrients are there are very tightly recycled. It's the only way the reef can be so productive...right up there with rain forests and estuaries.

Exactly.:bounce3: That's all I've been trying to say. When we look at rain forests and estuaries, there's no mystery as to how they can be so productive. These environments are loaded with the nutrients needed to sustain life. At first glance of a tropical coral reef, there doesn't seem to be enough nutrients to support the explosion of life found there. The only way these reefs can exist is to tightly cycle what little nutrients they have available to them. The ability of these organisms to tightly share, and cycle, nutrients is what separates them from virtually every other habitat on the planet. This is what allows them to live in an environment that otherwise would support very little life. It isn't the abundance of nutrients that makes this possible. It's their ability to tightly cycle the precious few nutrients they have.
 
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