Effective filtration for heavy feeders

[dendro982]

My 20 gal FOWLR with heavy bioload houses teenage volitan lion and tassled filefish, while 90 gal new tank is cycling. I'm trying to keep water quality under control, but with not much success: no matter what I do, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are constantly present (0.5 ppm NH3/NH4, 0.5 ppm NO2, 80 ppm NO3, AP test kits, duplicated by Hagen Nutrafin kits).

Filtration equipment I have there:
- 2 in-tank skimmers - Visi-Jet, rated for 70 gal (it works like a clock!) and big Lee's CC skimmer, rated for 90g (same quality and quantity of skimmate, as Visi-Jet - tea colored).
- 2 very oversized HOB filters: one with prefilter sponge and Matrix Bio media (0.5L, 50 gal rated), and other with filter floss, all cleaned or chanded once in two days.
- 10 LB of LR, bare bottom tank.

Today I replaced AC20 powerhead with air stone, just in case if there was not enough oxygen for bacteria to work. Purigen and activated carbon also were recently removed as not too much helpful, space was used for biomedia.

Tasseled filefish is fed 3x times daily, excess is removed in few minutes by vacuuming.

Assuming that presence of ammonia may mean that bacteria died off and tank needs new cycling, I added bacterial support (Stability) for 2 weeks, while making ammonia and nitrite levels less toxic for bacteria by adding daily double dose of Prime (which makes them still available for bacteria for 24 hrs). Also used filter floss and biomedia from nearby reef tank with excellent parameters. No changes. Then tried adding vodka ~2.5ml/20gal (4-5 times a day in 0.5 ml doses). Oxygen supply for bacteria was expected to be OK because of 2 skimmers with a lot of air bubbles coming. Water is clearer, almost as reef, but parameters are the same. I don't blame test kits, because 3 other reef tanks show zeroes.

Bought a bigger tank, it's already cycling for 2 weeks.

Any ideas what's going on (other than general "system is overloaded")? What else can I do, while cycling is not yet finished?

BTW, fish is looking good, active, good appetite. Live rock looks greenish dead, few corralines survived. Chaetomorpha in in-tank micro-refugium is not growing, but is not dieing also - in stasis). No algae blooms.

 

[VolitanLioness]

You have a large load, you may want to up your water changes and more often until your new tank is ready.

What size water changes are you doing and how often are you doing them?

Kaye

 

[dendro982]

Hi, Kaye! Is it you who has 300g tank with 3 lions and 90 gal with tasseled filefish and dog faced puffer? I'm the one who's questions you answered at nano-reef forum - with volitan, Fuzzy file and Valentini puffer.

Currently I'm changing 1/3 of water weekly and once in two days maybe 1 liter, when cleaning filter. When nitrates grew up to 80 ppm - same 1/3, then one day later - another 1/3.
Tried Melev's reef method of massive water changes - all returns in a few days.

If you have time, can you give more details on filtration in 90 gal - other than filter floss in sump's sock (is it 100 mk pad sock)?
I'm planning to use 50 lb of LR (actually not too live) in my new 90 gal and compensate lack of more LR by using wet filter in the sump with Matrix Bio media in double quantity.

Thanks!

 

[VolitanLioness]

That's me....... My File fish went in my 300g today, it started having aggression issues in my 90, the move went great and it started to eat right away.... Whew!

I am not sure if you will be able to correct the water issues with your Bio-Load, plus both fish are messy and that is not helping. You can try cutting back your feedings with your file fish to once a day plus greens and feed your lion once every 2-3 days. Try this for about a week along with the water changes to see if that will help.

My 90g has quite a bit of LR (100 lbs) plus it was a mature tank, my sump is full of rock. I change my filter floss often and run carbon in my filter sock which I rinse out often.

"(is it 100 mk pad sock)?" I am not sure what it is, I have had them for quite a while now.

Both LR and Base Rock are great filtration for your tank, try to get more Rock for your 90g if possible. Look for a reef club in your area, you may be able to pick up some rock for a great price through someone.

Kaye

 

[mm949]

the "best" way to reduce NH4 is to reduce the feeding...3x a day your tank will always "cycle"....the tank is so small that all you really can do is maintain the size of the fish with reduced feedings...
try feeding 3x a week...your levels should drop and level quickly...

 

[dendro982]

Thanks for the input! I'll raise quantitity of live rock gradually, batch after batch (curing).
Kaye, a little more questions:
- Do you have something protecting bare bottom from rock failing?
I tried 2 mm Lexane sheet, siliconed at perimeter, but air was trapped in-between, Lexane warped and diconnected.
- What aquascaping is comfortable for tasseled file and volitan?
I had read they prefer hiding spaces, may be with few exits, and there still should be swimming space. 100 lb of LR occupies a lot of space - how it is located to leave the swimming space - pillar in the center, high in corner, three mountains at equal distance? Something at the top for filefish to feel secure?
- Do you have powerhead or other source of water flow along the bare bottom, working permanently or periodically - to raise particles into the water column to be picked up by filtering? What and how is it oriented? Is LR elevated on the feet or other suppot?
I tried water pump (Mini-Jet 606, 156 gph) in 20g tank, it was impossible to place it less that half of inch from the bottom and everything was collected under it eventually - very difficult to reach.
- Outlow to the sump - at what level is it: in lower 1/3 of tank to collect debris from the bottom (tube with strainer) or at the top, after surface skimming box? How the water is moving (location of powerheads or closed loop returns) for keeping most of sediments in water column to be picked in outflow box at the top?
- Cutting feeding - how much will be acceptable for filefish?
I had read they still need to be fed at least 3 times daily. I feed it may be 3 min, until it starts to spit or flows away.

Your tasseled file become aggressive - is it maturing issue or lack of space? Mine keeps a small valentini puffer between the rock, but flows away from volitan.

Any information will be very helpful.

 

[VolitanLioness]

Do you have something protecting bare bottom from rock failing?

In my 90g which is glass I have slate, they are large Steel Grey slate tiles, I picked them up from home depot. They were not treated so I washed them off really good and placed them in. Slate is non-porous material, you may need a heavy cutting board material to place on the bottom.

My 300 is deep, I do not have MH lighting and the acrylic is thick, I use nothing.

What aquascaping is comfortable for tasseled file and volitan?

I place my rock on one side of my tank with open swimming on the other side. As my Volitans mature they only stay on top of the rock, they never go in the crevices. My Tassled never goes into the rock, it will swim down but basically stays at the surface.

Set your rock however you like it, once your fish have adjusted to the new tank you will know if things need moved.

Do you have powerhead or other source of water flow along the bare bottom, working permanently or periodically - to raise particles into the water column to be picked up by filtering? What and how is it oriented? Is LR elevated on the feet or other suppot?

My 90g has good flow from the return pump and one powerhead, I use a guard at the bottom of the powerhead to avoid any mishaps. The rocks that are odd shaped or have large crevice are at the bottom so I can syphon under. If you can not reach those areas place a powerhead low to keep it clean, you do not want any build up under your rocks.

Just like you said "to raise particles into the water column to be picked up by filtering"

Is LR elevated on the feet or other suppot?

I tried using large cut pieces of PVC to place my rock on in my 300g but I did not find my rock to be stable enough. I have never tried it in my 90g.... which I should....lol but have seen others do it and it worked for them.

Outlow to the sump - at what level is it: in lower 1/3 of tank to collect debris from the bottom (tube with strainer) or at the top, after surface skimming box? How the water is moving (location of powerheads or closed loop returns) for keeping most of sediments in water column to be picked in outflow box at the top?

I think I am understanding this right....lol At the top, if your return pump shuts off you need to stop the water from draining into your sump otherwise your sump will overflow.

Cutting feeding - how much will be acceptable for filefish?

I would cut it back to once a day for now, they do need food but with water quality issues I would do it. I have always seen it said to feed 3 times per day on this species also, I am not sure why they are slow moving fish....

I feed 3 times per day but smaller portions 3 times per day.


I don't feel it was lack of space, I just think issues with this filefish. It recently started to attack my syphon hose, I put a net in my tank the other day to get something, it bit the net and would not let go, it started to fight the net. I did not want it to tangle up in my net so I carried it straight to the other tank with it holding on to the net and just put it in.

Kaye

 

[fishykid9212]

Go to the sugar method, add 1/4 of a teaspoon tot hat tank every other day and your skimmer will skim out every possible piece of fish poop in that tank. Trust me, I dropped my nitrates from 80 ppm to 0 in 2 weeks without a water change. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you very much, Kaye - most informative answers.
I thought that my filefish just nibbles new items, as they pick live rock and prefilter sponges all day in the search of food. It also hunts rotating pieces of food when I'm removing them with battery operated gravel cleaner, like kitty who hunts air bubble in Python hose... Most interesting and highly intelligent fish.

Pardon my English, it's not my primary language - where are your outflow and powerheads located?
Usually PH are at the top of the tank, at the back corners, directed to the center of the front glass, with OF in the middle.

I'm asking so many questions because you are the only one successful tasseled filefish keeper I could find on any forums, my respect and cheers to you!

Do you have additional PH at the bottom, is it attached to the bottom or side glass, at what distance from the bottom?

What and how many powerheads you use - 1 or 2 Maxi-Jets 1200 ? And how many gph/ or volumes of the tank her hr/ gives your return pump? Just trying to re-create flow sufficient for effective filtration, because my own system is definitely not working.

Thanks again!

Fishykid, I had read all your posts and vodka dosing threads with your input - this is a great approach. I just went with vodka dosing because ethyl alcohol is used as antibacterial rubbing, and sugar is feeding medium for bacteria. What bioload you have?

Returning to the my first post in this thread:
I just don't get it:
1) with enough flow to move finest pieces of the food and fish poop into the filter and frequent change if the floss, and
2) with two oversized skimmers (CC skimmer - with very good reputation) who pull only light colored skimmate (I guess that it means there are not much organics left in the water), and
3) microbubble ceramic airstone don't creates staying on the surface seafoam (again, sign of not too much organics in the water)
- where all ammonia comes from?
Vodka also didn't helped with nitrates (2.5 ml/20 gal dayly for 2 wks), very strange...

 

[fishykid9212]

I have a damsel, a clarki and ocellaris clown, pajama cardinal, hippo tang, and a yellow tang. If it's either vodka or sugar they both do the same, I have tried them both and get the same effect the only difference is sugar is cheaper. Good luck and let me know how it turns out

 

[dendro982]

Thanks! I already finished two weeks with vodka dosing, with no effect. May be in the future...

 

[fishykid9212]

really how much vodka did you add? That's not right, I get results every time I use it.

 

[dendro982]

I also smell something fishy in my metodology, it just couldn't be so.
I added 5-6 times a day 0.5 ml of "Absolut", 40% of alcohol. Water became cloudier a few hours later, skimmers pull more, but still light colored skimmate. Daily parameters testing in first few days, then once in two days, AP test kits. The only effect is the water looks clearer.
Yesterday started dosing again - what can I lose, this time with ceramic microbubbler instead of powerhead, may be it was lack of oxygen.