Electrical Costs Killing Me!!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13200206#post13200206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Can you explain this to me/us better? I don't understand it, even though it has been touched on a few times in this thread.

The bulb is a power compact with a ballast. It needs an initial surge to light the bulb, right? I know that every one of these bulbs states it uses x amount of watts to produce x amount of light. Typically something like 19w puts out 75w of light. So we pay for those 19w. :confused:
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The power company supplies us with volt-amperes, but they bill us for watts.

Resistive loads like incandescent lights have a power factor of 1.0, meaning 1 KVA supplied = 1 KW used. Power factors below 1.0 require a utility to generate more than the minimum volt-amperes necessary than the watts actually used.

Normal power factor ballasts have a power factor of (0.4 to 0.6). You have the same problems with computer power supplies and wall-wart transformers that cause capacitive and inductive loads that have a power factor less than 1.

It's splitting hairs really, my CFL's are 8 watts, so I'm paying for 8 watts of power. The power company has to supply 16 volt-amps or so of power to keep them going due to the power factor. That's still less than 60 or even 100 volt amps from an incandescent bulb at unity power factor. I get the same 60 watts worth of lumens. This argument against CFL seriously fails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

Besides, do you really feel bad about robbing the energy companies a little by using the same CFL bulbs that they are outright asking everyone to use?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13201128#post13201128 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigJay
The power company supplies us with volt-amperes, but they bill us for watts.

Resistive loads like incandescent lights have a power factor of 1.0, meaning 1 KVA supplied = 1 KW used. Power factors below 1.0 require a utility to generate more than the minimum volt-amperes necessary than the watts actually used.

Normal power factor ballasts have a power factor of (0.4 to 0.6). You have the same problems with computer power supplies and wall-wart transformers that cause capacitive and inductive loads that have a power factor less than 1.
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In a nutshell yes... :) (see Marc, he explained much faster and without as many words as I would have!)

It's splitting hairs really, my CFL's are 8 watts, so I'm paying for 8 watts of power. The power company has to supply 16 volt-amps or so of power to keep them going due to the power factor. That's still less than 60 or even 100 volt amps from an incandescent bulb at unity power factor. I get the same 60 watts worth of lumens. This argument against CFL seriously fails.
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 When looked at from the homeowner perspective sure it fails :)

However, when looked at from the powerhouse side, it is a disaster that severely skews the Reactive/Real power balance on the grid. It is a nightmare that engineers have only begun to worry about. CFLs poor power factor is not from the normal (clean) DSP type of loss (Displacement Power Factor) but rather caused by harmonic losses. CFL bulbs are more than a little noisy... So why not place harmonic/PF correction in each ballast in each bulb? 1) cost 2) Filtering the low freq harmonics will help the PF but in turn opens another can of worms by turning each CFL into a high freq disturbance on the network.

Only part of their concern is total kVa. When the total PF dips below .8 (or someplace around there from what I understand) things get squirelly and really bad things start to happen.

Also many common CFL bulbs have PFs in the .5 (Or worse) range.

LOW PF and high harmonics are very hard on everything on the grid, from distro transformers to your clock radio to arc furnaces. Equipment failures will skyrocket and outages will be certainly result. (not that any of it will ever be attributed to power quality).

The Aug 2003 blackout was partly due to a lack of reactive power on the grid caused by a high load, high harmonics and a low PF.

So splitting hairs? Maybe in some aspects, but it is certainly a valid topic that is going to be (or is already) being worked on by many an grid engineer.

Besides, do you really feel bad about robbing the energy companies a little by using the same CFL bulbs that they are outright asking everyone to use?
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 The private power companies are not asking everybody to use them, the govt and greenies are :)

I don't feel bad about not being billed for poor PF, the point was that SOMEBODY has to pay for it anyway, and that SOMEBODY just passes the bill back along to you and me anyway. If we flood the grid with 40% CFL lighting, YOU AND I are going to pay the billions of dollars in grid upgrades that will be needed to keep the power clean (along with the bill for the disposal of the used bulbs and the govt offices that waste money managing the whole boondoggle).

No such thing as a free lunch :)
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13197473#post13197473 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I never said that you could not save kWh buy purchasing CFL bulbs :) Sure you can! Buying them in bulk like you did will also help to ensure that you do see an actual savings in the end.

On a personal level:
I don't like the light they produce.
I don't like the turn on delay

On the "green" level:
They do not last much longer than a good incandescent bulb
The overall cradle to grave environmental impact is MUCH larger than the standard incandescent bulbs that it replaces.

The conclusion:
If you want to save some money every month, the CFL bulb is not a bad idea in some cases. If you want to save the planet, then you have been hoodwinked :)

BTW, I do like the bulbs in rough service areas where incandescent bulb lose their filaments quickly.
mrpet, I am still working on that spreadsheet :)
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Agree - the difference in light color takes a little getting used to.
Disagree - The bulbs I use don't have a turn on delay.
Disagree - I do believe they will last longer. If nothing else, the bulbs I bought came with a 5 year, unlimited hour guarantee. I had 1 quit a few months back, sent it in, got a new one - no questions asked. The first 2 years in the house I replaced maybe 6 - 8 inc bulbs that had burned out, out of the 56+ total bulbs. This past year, only the 1 CFL (and it was replaced as "defective") out of the same 56+ bulbs.

I'm unsure on the overall enviromental impact vs incs. I would agree at least that there are 'environmental' factions out there greatly overstating the "green" advantage of CFLs. However, I do think that - if the idividual bulb lasts X times longer than a standard inc bulb, alot fo the CFL impact gets "diluted" because a single CFL, though more "harmful" (if you want to use that word) to produce and dispose of than a single inc bulb, if the CFL lasted say 5 times longer, now you have to compare the impact of 1 CFL vs. the 5 incs you would have consumed in the same time period...

I also believe more subtle facets, such as the CFLs lower heat output and how that affects other energy users in a home (such as heating, A/C or refrigeration), have not been fully factored into the overall debate.
 
Interesting on the CFLs...I had always thought the mercury was the biggest issue (1 CFL contains almost the same amount as 1 4ft flourescent T8), but I see it is not.
On the mercury issue, big business/school systems don't have to dispose of flourescent tubes properly here in Md. So why is it becoming such an issue with the CFLs?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13201505#post13201505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
In a nutshell yes... :) (see Marc, he explained much faster and without as many words as I would have!)

I don't feel bad about not being billed for poor PF, the point was that SOMEBODY has to pay for it anyway, and that SOMEBODY just passes the bill back along to you and me anyway. If we flood the grid with 40% CFL lighting, YOU AND I are going to pay the billions of dollars in grid upgrades that will be needed to keep the power clean (along with the bill for the disposal of the used bulbs and the govt offices that waste money managing the whole boondoggle).

No such thing as a free lunch :)
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Here's my energy company's website. They are asking people to use CFL's. This is a private energy company, not a government entity or a cooperative.
http://www.nevadapower.com/saveenergy/home/rebates/lighting.cfm

I'll agree that we should be making CFL's with higher PF. A PF of 0.9 in a CFL is definitely possible, but as you said it costs more. I still can't discount the fact that 8 watts (16 volt amps) is still better than 60 or 100 volt amps. In my case I replaced 100 volt amp halogens with 16 volt amp/8 watt CFL's.

I think that the only "problem" is that electric billing by the watt isn't pro-rated by the overall power factor of the individual home. It's hard to point to a CFL and call it a significant problem when they cost maybe 20 cents per month to run.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13201505#post13201505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal


Also many common CFL bulbs have PFs in the .5 (Or worse) range.
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Seriously? Thats pretty poor.


Aren't most electronic (fluoro) ballasts >.90? So this is really just an issue or really crappy ballasts in the CFLs? We need to move the ballast out of the bulb, so less 'disposable' ballasts can be used then.



They do not last much longer than a good incandescent bulb
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I've heard you say this a bunch of times, and I'd like to know where/what brand of incandescent, and what brand of CFL you're using. My experience has been entirely contradictory.
 
I've tried three brands of CFL's and they've all died in about the same timeframe as all other bulbs. Bright Effects, Sylvania, n:vision. One just died over my sink in the kitchen after no more than three months use at max.

I was done with those, even before reading this thread.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13205941#post13205941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RokleM
I've tried three brands of CFL's and they've all died in about the same timeframe as all other bulbs. Bright Effects, Sylvania, n:vision. One just died over my sink in the kitchen after no more than months use at max.

I was done with those, even before reading this thread.
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What is the fixture over the sink like? Some fixtures just kill CFL bulbs (get too hot I think)
 
Quoted before I fixed it ;) Three months used.

It's a standard ceiling fixture covered by glass. Roughly a hour or so of use a day, so less than 90 hours runtime. It replaced a GE incandescent that had been running for about a year before it quit.
 
I've had many quit as well, all the n:vision brand, one actually blew, the glass busted at the tip, overall they seem to work alright and as BeanAnimal mentioned they are great for rugged use areas. A big thing is the lower heat output as well on fixtures with multiple lights, a five light fixture with incandescents puts off a ton of heat.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13205610#post13205610 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigJay
Here's my energy company's website. They are asking people to use CFL's. This is a private energy company, not a government entity or a cooperative.
http://www.nevadapower.com/saveenergy/home/rebates/lighting.cfm

I'll agree that we should be making CFL's with higher PF. A PF of 0.9 in a CFL is definitely possible, but as you said it costs more.
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nd at any reasonable costs turns the CFL into an HF transmitter :)

I still can't discount the fact that 8 watts (16 volt amps) is still better than 60 or 100 volt amps.
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 But the real/reactive power balance and harmonics are a huge issue for the grid.

This is along with all of the possible issues with CFLs in general. From an overall standpoint it is not a good picture.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13205786#post13205786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley


I've heard you say this a bunch of times, and I'd like to know where/what brand of incandescent, and what brand of CFL you're using. My experience has been entirely contradictory.
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GE, Phillips and A few off brands. I don't even bother with them anymore except for the floodlamps in the yard because I purchased a case of them on sale and the bathroom fixture that takes the 4 pin industrial style 54W.
 
My bill dropped by around $60.00 just by increasing the AC from 75 to 77 in the daytime, and keeping the ceiling fans on continually. Not too shabby for the hottest month of the year (august).
 
--not sure if anyone said this or not.. INSULATE your garage doors. It should cut down on the garage temperature anywhere from 8 to 20 degrees.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13394964#post13394964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by J-Burns
The power company installs capacitors to help with the power factor.
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You don't pay for power factor loses at your home, the utility company does. Therefore, correcting the power factor at your home would result in an increased electric bill.

PF correction is usually done in commercial spaces that utilize a significant amount of low PF equipment (hundreds or thousands of ballasts, large >20HP motors etc).

PF in homes is typically not that far from unity anyway unless of course the homeowner has filled the house with silly CFL bulbs.
 
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