electrical sockets and reef tanks

[sawcreatives]

Judging by how I phrase this question, you will probably realize my lack of knowledge when it comes to electricity.

With that said...

I currently have an older house (1947) with a few sockets that were converted to a 3 prong, and others that are still 2 prong.

I'd like to put my tank in an area where the only nearby socket is a 2 prong.

I want to keep my inhabitants safe and my house safe, but I'm not sure of the best way to go about this.

I saw amazon sells 2 to 3 prong converters. Would that with a surge protector get the job done?

Or are there other options? I'm trying to have to avoid calling a costly electrician.

 

[Dmorty217]

The 3rd prong on a outlet is the ground and like you mentioned most older homes don't have a ground. Have you took the outlet out to see if there is a ground ran there and just not hooked up to the outlet? The neutral (white wire) will serve a similar purpose as a ground if there isn't a ground wire there. The 3 prong adapter you put I a 2 prong outlet doesn't do anything as far as grounding goes, it just allows you to plug in a plug with a ground. I would assume that your wire is 14 gauge connected to a 15 amp breaker ( this is how my current home is wired and my 220g runs without any issues. I did put a dedicated 20amp breaker with 12 gauge wire just in case I needed it, this could also be a option)

 

[aquamanpc24]

I agree with dmorty, might be easy to run a dedicated new line to the tank area pending your homes design, you could easily do it yourself pending your handy man skills, but they have have gfci testers, basially plugs into outlet and u can press the button to simulate a trip if it lights up green, install a gfci outlet to that bad boy and call it a day. I hope what I wrote makes sense and answered your questions, pulling the cover will be the best test overall.

 

[uncleof6]

The 3rd prong on a outlet is the ground and like you mentioned most older homes don't have a ground. Have you took the outlet out to see if there is a ground ran there and just not hooked up to the outlet? The neutral (white wire) will serve a similar purpose as a ground if there isn't a ground wire there. The 3 prong adapter you put I a 2 prong outlet doesn't do anything as far as grounding goes, it just allows you to plug in a plug with a ground. I would assume that your wire is 14 gauge connected to a 15 amp breaker ( this is how my current home is wired and my 220g runs without any issues. I did put a dedicated 20amp breaker with 12 gauge wire just in case I needed it, this could also be a option)

No, a neutral will not serve a similar, or even remotely, similar purpose as a ground. The notion of neutral and ground is indeed a confusing one, primarily because of unfortunate terminology. The neutral is the grounded conductor, the "equipment ground" or in Europe: Earth, is the grounding conductor.

The NEC says that under certain conditions, you can ground all metal parts of enclosures used to install service equipment by the grounded neutral conductor on the supply side of the system. When you're using this type of grounding scheme, this includes the service weather-head, service raceway, service meter base, and service equipment enclosure. Also under certain conditions, you can ground all metal parts of enclosures used for wiring the elements of a separately derived system (SDS) by the grounded neutral conductor on the secondary side of the transformer. This includes the transformer's secondary conductors. The NEC also says you can use the grounded neutral conductor to ground the non current-carrying metal parts of frames and enclosures making up an electrical system.

The OP's residence does not fall within the certain conditions, and his residence, unless it is a multi-floor high rise condo structure or the like, or other "odd" occupancy considering the age. If there is no ground in the box, there is no ground in the box, and the neutral is not going to do the job of the ground (or earth.)

The purpose of the grounded (neutral) conductor is a power return path.

The purpose of the grounding conductor (ground/earth) wire is for operator/equipment safety. Its purpose is to provide a return path in the case of a momentary fault, to prevent the current from going somewhere we don't want it. If there is no grounding conductor in the box, there is no grounding conductor in the box, and the grounded conductor (neutral) is not going to do the job of the grounding conductor (or earth.)

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Disclaimer: I am not responsible for loss/injury/death associated with this post. In all cases, hire a licensed electrician, to sort out your electrical system.

sawcreatives: Two-prong to three-prong adapters—these can only be safely used on a grounded (or earthed) two-prong outlet. A pig-tail tester will light up on a grounded two-prong outlet if you touch one lead to the smaller slot on the outlet, and the other lead to the screw in the middle of the outlet. If this is the case, you can safely use a two-prong to three-prong adapter, as long as you secure it to the outlet with the cover plate screw. Any other use of a two-prong adapter is unsafe. I highly doubt that it is grounded, however if the box is metal, and the wires run in conduit, it very well could be.

There does not need to be a grounding conductor for the proper operation of a GFCI receptacle. Rather than using an adapter, install a GFCI receptacle or two. This is certainly going to be "safer" than using an adapter. It is not as "safe" as it could be, with a grounding conductor in the electrical system, because if the metal housing of an external pump becomes energized for instance, the GFCI will not trip, (till you give it a path to ground,) nor will the breaker trip. The latter being the purpose of the grounding conductor, as a direct short to the housing will trip the breaker, likely before a human makes contact with the housing, making the GFCI redundant, in the case of a grounded (earthed) motor or ballast housing for instance. (Do use a GFCI however, what I would do with it, is irrelevant.)

 

[sawcreatives]

@uncleof6 Thanks so much, that was very helpful.

I'm going to buy a pigtail tester and see if another outlet I have close by is actually grounded. If this is the case, I may just get a 6ft surge protector and extend it to the spot on the wall I'd like to have it.

I will also try to test that two prong outlet using the method you described. I can see it is in metal housing, so it may be possible!

 

[uncleof6]

@uncleof6 Thanks so much, that was very helpful.

I'm going to buy a pigtail tester and see if another outlet I have close by is actually grounded. If this is the case, I may just get a 6ft surge protector and extend it to the spot on the wall I'd like to have it.

I will also try to test that two prong outlet using the method you described. I can see it is in metal housing, so it may be possible!

A six foot surge protector will violate the NEC prohibition against using extension cords for more than three hours. Attaching the multi-outlet assembly to the structure would further be prohibited as it makes the outlet assembly a permanent part of the structure, in a situation that requires the use of an approved enclosure. (J box for instance.) To be code compliant, it is necessary to install/have installed the needed number of "legal" outlets installed at the point of use. (not code language, but easier to follow.)

None of this becomes "a concern" until after an accident/loss occurs, and then it is too late.

 

[sleepydoc]

@uncleof6 Thanks so much, that was very helpful.

I'm going to buy a pigtail tester and see if another outlet I have close by is actually grounded. If this is the case, I may just get a 6ft surge protector and extend it to the spot on the wall I'd like to have it.

I will also try to test that two prong outlet using the method you described. I can see it is in metal housing, so it may be possible!

First, I would buy an outlet tester at your local hardware store and check to see if the grounded outlets in your house are truly grounded - they may or may not be and if they are not, that may be a safety issue for you.

Second, understand the difference between a surge protector, a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) and a circuit breaker. They all do different things and have different purposes.

Circuit breakers - limit the maximum amount of current flowing in a circuit. Their size is dictated by your house wiring and their primary purpose is to protect the wiring from overheating due to too much current.

Surge Protectors - like a circuit breaker but faster; designed to protect equipment (usually electronics) from a sudden spike in voltage such as that caused by a lightning strike. Note that this will do nothing to protect you if there is a short or if some wires get wet.

AFCIs - Circuit breakers now required by code for living areas that are designed to detect arcing (like sparking from a frayed wire) and shut the circuit down before it causes a fire. This will happen even if the total current draw is less than the rated capacity of the breaker. Their purpose is to prevent fires as described above. Again, this will not protect against wet wires unless they cause arcing.

GFCIs - Required by code for areas with potential moisture (bathrooms, kitchens, garages, unfinished basements, etc) They are designed to detect current flowing outside the 'normal' path (i.e. out one prong and back in the other, such as would occur if you dropped your hair drier in the tub) and cut the current before personal injury can occur. Their primary purpose is to protect people from shocks/electrocution.

Regardless of grounding issues, you should use GFI outlets for you tank and equipment. If your wiring does not have proper grounding, Code does allow a GFCI outlet to be used in place of a grounded outlet, provided it is labeled. It's not the best idea to do your entire house like this, but is much safer than having ungrounded equipment.

Finally, based on your questions, I would advise you to have an electrician (or someone more qualified) come and install the outlets for you. It's not difficult to do, but has to be done correctly. otherwise you could end up with something more dangerous than you started with.

 

[sfsuphysics]

A six foot surge protector will violate the NEC prohibition against using extension cords for more than three hours.

That just about everyone in the existence of "entertainment centers" with TV, DVD, cable box, etc have violated.

Or is it one of those things that the power side of thing can not be in use for more than 3 hours, i.e turn your TV off every 3 hours?

 

[JP Reef]

That just about everyone in the existence of "entertainment centers" with TV, DVD, cable box, etc have violated.

Or is it one of those things that the power side of thing can not be in use for more than 3 hours, i.e turn your TV off every 3 hours?

Doesn't apply if the power strip is fused.

 

[uncleof6]

That just about everyone in the existence of "entertainment centers" with TV, DVD, cable box, etc have violated.

Or is it one of those things that the power side of thing can not be in use for more than 3 hours, i.e turn your TV off every 3 hours?

The extension cord deal is about using extension cords for continuous use, which is defined as three hours or more. It applies to the physical presence of the cord itself, whether it is powering the device at the moment or not. (Whether the cord or assembly in use qualifies as an extension cord is another issue.)

It may seem silly, however, the code addresses the trip hazard associated with extension cords, as NFPA statistics show a major cause of loss in a residence is due to tripping over extension cords. There is some common sense here also.

As far as entertainment centers and computers go, there are still some things to note, and be aware of.

Doesn't apply if the power strip is fused.

Not so, as far as I have been able to determine.

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Article 380 of the NEC addresses multioutlet assemblies:

380.1 Scope. This article covers the use and installation requirements for multioutlet assemblies.
380.2 Use.
(A) Permitted. The use of a multioutlet assembly shall be permitted in dry locations.
(B) Not Permitted. A multioutlet assembly shall not be installed as follows:
(1) Where concealed, except that it shall be permissible to surround the back and sides of a metal multioutlet assembly by the building finish or recess a nonmetallic multioutlet assembly in a baseboard
(2) Where subject to severe physical damage
(3) Where the voltage is 300 volts or more between conductors unless the assembly is of metal having a thickness of not less than 1.02 mm (0.040 in.)
(4) Where subject to corrosive vapors
(5) In hoistways
(6) In any hazardous (classified) location, except as permitted by other articles in this Code
380.3 Metal Multioutlet Assembly Through Dry Partitions. It shall be permissible to extend a metal multioutlet assembly through (not run within) dry partitions if arrangements are made for removing the cap or cover on all exposed portions and no outlet is located within the partitions.

Folks sorta of snicker away UL listing regulations, (taken a bit more seriously in Canada e.g. CE) however the NEC gives some teeth with the use of language such as "inconsistant with labeling," "listed device" and others. (not going to quote them.)

UL standard 1363 requirements for relocatable power taps (multioutlet assemblies) include:

1.1 These requirements cover cord-connected, relocatable power taps rated 250 V AC or less and 20 A AC or less. A relocatable power tap is intended only for indoor use as a temporary extension of a grounding alternating-current branch circuit for general use.

Temporary is open to interpretation, however it refers to the device itself, not what it is running. E.G. if attached to (specific language is a "workbench," however the "spirit" would include) an aquarium stand, it is no longer temporary or relocatable. If attached to the wall, it is subject to other code sections, as well as no longer being temporary or relocatable.

Multioutlet assemblies are covered in other sections of the code as well, dealing with outlets in general. In general it says use enough "compliant" outlets to meet the needs, within the branch circuit limits (residential common sense rule based on 80% of circuit rating: 8 on a 15 amp branch circuit; 10 on a 20 amp branch circuit, though there is no set limit.)

Common sense tells us the code cops won't be coming around checking out your installation, extension cords, multioutlet assemblies. It only becomes an issue when there is an incident that involves insurance and liability. In my case I have pulled permits for much of the work I have done, for obvious reasons, so I have a good idea of what the NFPA (NEC) is looking for. I believe that people should be aware of this stuff, however, it is not necessary to delve deep into the NEC, and get debates going over it: it is rather simple for an end user to read the label, and determine what they should and should not do with a particular item/device. If they choose to do something they should not, it is on them. That is how the insurance investigators and fire marshals will look at it.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Uncleof6-
Then won't a Apex power bar be non compliant to code? Is it not an "extention cord" used for more than 3 hours? I would like to know the science behind why an extention cord is unacceptable to use. When out of harms way (not being tripped and such), and of the proper guage, as an extention to reach power where we need. I mean we have hundreds of feet of romex running all over the guts of our homes. Which is insulated solid copper wire. Where an extention cord is insulated braided copper wire. I would assume to give flexability to the cord over solid. Is it the resistance created by additional plugs? The change of corrosion able to get into said plugs? If it is based on resistance how can a hundred feet of romex to a plug be comprimised by another 10' of 14 guage extention cord?
Additionally if extention cords can't be used for over 3 hours. Every device that we plug into an outlet has an "extention cord", being it's power cord, running for more than 3 hours?!? With non differences in that cord to an extention cord.
I totally understand that the extention cord can be abused as an electrical tool. And has been the cause of many house fires across the world. But could they have been mostly caused by user neglegence and stupidity vs. doing it "right" if there is such a thing.
Just asking the questions as our hobby has no shortage of use of MANY outlets!
Thank you

 

[fermentedhiker]

I think part of the confusion is how the code defines spaces. In this instance a powerstrip is not in violation because placing a fish tank in a room does not change that room into a wet location under code. People with dedicated fishrooms with sinks and drains etc... in the fish room doubtless would run afoul of this definition as those would make the room a wet location like a kitchen or bathroom.

 

[Chris27]

The simple difference between an installed wire in the bellows of your home and an extension cord is directly related to the license that the installer is required to have prior to running a line.

Building codes say what size wire, how long and what breaker it should be attached to....a licensed electrician wiring up a new house must abide by those rules to stay in business and sell the house.

Alternatively....Joe blow minimum wage worker walks into his garage at his $650/month rental house, pulls out an orange extension cord, and then runs a microwave oven, coffee maker, 60" TV and Xbox at the same time....let's not forget that the 16 gauge cord has been crudely patched together with electrical tape 3 times after being slammed in the car door, eaten by the neighbors dog, and repeatedly ripped from the receptacle after he trips over it running to hide his bong from the landlord...

I'm happy there are rules and standards manufacturers should follow, and lets not forget about the insurance companies, without these things in place I would hate to see how much homeowners would cost...it would make paying property taxes in Jersey look like throwing a penny in a wishing well.

 

[uncleof6]

I think part of the confusion is how the code defines spaces. In this instance a powerstrip is not in violation because placing a fish tank in a room does not change that room into a wet location under code. People with dedicated fishrooms with sinks and drains etc... in the fish room doubtless would run afoul of this definition as those would make the room a wet location like a kitchen or bathroom.

Maybe maybe not. But what you can't get away from, is corrosive vapors (salt vapor) in and around an aquarium stand. Obviously there are ways around that, provided where it is does not run afoul of other provisions.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

To qualify as being "subject to corrosive vapors" wouldn't that have to show signs of corrosion?

I guess if it's all in hindsight you couldn't ask them if they see corrosion under those fire marks..

 

[uncleof6]

To qualify as being "subject to corrosive vapors" wouldn't that have to show signs of corrosion?

I guess if it's all in hindsight you couldn't ask them if they see corrosion under those fire marks..

Arson investigators are pretty clever when it comes to figuring out what started a fire. Arson.org has case studies involving fires caused by multioutlet assemblies and salt residue how it got there... there's a current thread on an ATI fixture that went to flames.

Inside an aquarium stand, with a sump, is a wet location... by any definition of the word. These are things people should be aware of. What they do with the information, is up to them. Read the labels/instructions, and act accordingly.

 

[uncleof6]

Uncleof6-
Then won't a Apex power bar be non compliant to code? Is it not an "extention cord" used for more than 3 hours? I would like to know the science behind why an extention cord is unacceptable to use. When out of harms way (not being tripped and such), and of the proper guage, as an extention to reach power where we need. I mean we have hundreds of feet of romex running all over the guts of our homes. Which is insulated solid copper wire. Where an extention cord is insulated braided copper wire. I would assume to give flexability to the cord over solid. Is it the resistance created by additional plugs? The change of corrosion able to get into said plugs? If it is based on resistance how can a hundred feet of romex to a plug be comprimised by another 10' of 14 guage extention cord?
Additionally if extention cords can't be used for over 3 hours. Every device that we plug into an outlet has an "extention cord", being it's power cord, running for more than 3 hours?!? With non differences in that cord to an extention cord.
I totally understand that the extention cord can be abused as an electrical tool. And has been the cause of many house fires across the world. But could they have been mostly caused by user neglegence and stupidity vs. doing it "right" if there is such a thing.
Just asking the questions as our hobby has no shortage of use of MANY outlets!
Thank you

Read the labeling on the Apex power bar. It will tell you what to do with it and what not to do with it.

Romex, yes miles of it sometimes. However, it is protected inside walls, and is only permitted outside the walls, with certain conditions. (Primarily unfinished garages.)

An extension cord extends a branch circuit from a compliant outlet, to a point of use, which would be the "plug" end of the supplied power cord for the device being powered.

There is not a science behind the code concerning extension cords. It is based on statistics concerning extension cords, and predominantly the trip hazard (as in breaking legs, wrists, arms, necks.) It seems a bit silly, but it is a code that says not for continuous use. It pretty much ends there, save for some specifics regarding through doorways, openings in walls, cannot be attached to the structure, etc. It does not say anything about "if the cord is tucked into the carpet around the baseboards," it says not for continuous use, temporary.

The code calls for a sufficient number of compliant outlets to supply the need, at the point of use. (not the exact wording.)

 

[sleepydoc]

I wonder if the OP felt like he got his question answered...:hmm4:

I've read through the NEC sections that we are talking about, including the definitions, and it's not clear to me that they are actually referring to extension cords as are commonly used. The definition of 'multi outlet assemblies' appears to apply to something other than an extension cord.

In general, the electrical code refers to wiring that is part of the structure and otherwise permanent. As heavy as our tanks are, they are not considered permanent, so I'm not sure that the code actually applies here, but I've never actually talked to an inspector to find out.

Regardless, The primary reason for codes is safety. Extension cords can certainly be unsafe, but are not intrinsically so; it depends on the implementation. I would argue that a single cord plugged into an outlet running to a tank that allows the associated cords to be neatly organized is much safer than a slew of cords running out the back of your stand to an outlet 6 feet away.

Outlet strips and extension cords are a fact of life in our hobby. Having an esoteric discussion as to whether they are technically allowed by the electrical code is really rather pointless in most cases. The better discussion to have is one focused on safety and reducing potential hazards.

 

[oltrevf]

to OP:

I'd recommend hiring an electrician to come in and rewire the electrical for the room your fish tank is in. Ask if he minds if you observe so you can learn about the process and what tools and equipment he uses.

You get peace of mind knowing that you have a dedicated circuit for your fish tank room and you get to learn!

Whatever you do... don't use a two prong to three prong converter. One thing that uncle06 didn't quite hammer home is that if fault current doesn't have a path to ground YOU or some flammable object could become the path to ground leading to loss of life or property damage.