graveyardworm
Premium Member
Elegance if you're still looking for more elegance I may have found one for you, just need to see if the owner would be willing to ship outside New England. PM me if interested.
Elegance Coral theory
- Thread starter elegance coral
- Start date
Actually those two elegance corals came from my LFS. The smaller one had been in their show tank for about a year but hadn't grown until I acquired it. They frequently get ones that are large and have the purple or pink tips.
Well I moved both of them to the other end of the tank last night where there is less water motion and a 20K 250w halide. They are still on the sand. So, maybe this evening I will snap a couple more pics for you. Glad to be part of your experiment
Okay I have a question about the Australian elegance corals... are they a shallow water elegance? What makes them supposedly hardier?
Like with so many others, the last time I had an elegance (before now) was in the early 90's. It was in the bottom of a 55gal that was lit with four NO fluorescents and had lots of nutrients in tank. It was at my old college and it was alive at least three years, don't what happened to it after I left...
Like with so many others, the last time I had an elegance (before now) was in the early 90's. It was in the bottom of a 55gal that was lit with four NO fluorescents and had lots of nutrients in tank. It was at my old college and it was alive at least three years, don't what happened to it after I left...
John Kelly
Goniopora Aficionado
Darrell, have you been fully photo-documenting every bit of your research? I found the thread that you recently started over on reefsanctuary. If you are not building up a good base of visual proof from multiple examples, to show a progression of both the decline and reversal of the problem, it is going to be difficult to convince people that damaging light is the primary cause for the widespread demise of Elegance corals.
On your thick/thin tissue observation:
One reason the tissue may appear more "thin" in certain Elegance is that the tissue can be more saturated with zooxanthellae and the coral would be extending the tentacles more in an effort to spread out the zooxanthellae for capturing light. The spreading out would cause the tissue to appear more transparent and "thin". Tissue that appears more "thick" could be more saturated with fluorescent proteins that reflect light and cause the tissue to appear more opaque, which also makes the tissue appear more "thick". This would be more likely to occur in Elegance that receives more light and would not be extending quite as much, which would also condense the proteins and make the tissue look even more opaque.
Polyps of the same coral: Some of the tissue looks thin and transparent (blue arrows) and some of the tissue looks thick and opaque (center polyp).
On your thick/thin tissue observation:
One reason the tissue may appear more "thin" in certain Elegance is that the tissue can be more saturated with zooxanthellae and the coral would be extending the tentacles more in an effort to spread out the zooxanthellae for capturing light. The spreading out would cause the tissue to appear more transparent and "thin". Tissue that appears more "thick" could be more saturated with fluorescent proteins that reflect light and cause the tissue to appear more opaque, which also makes the tissue appear more "thick". This would be more likely to occur in Elegance that receives more light and would not be extending quite as much, which would also condense the proteins and make the tissue look even more opaque.
Polyps of the same coral: Some of the tissue looks thin and transparent (blue arrows) and some of the tissue looks thick and opaque (center polyp).
elegance coral
They call me EC
I don't have an Elegance from Australia so I can't say that they are hardier. It would make sense that they have no need to dive to great depths to collect them there. I would assume these corals are coming from shallower water and therefore would have a much easier time adjusting to our lights.
When you say this coral was in a tank with high nutrients, what nutrients are you referring to?
elegance coral
They call me EC
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10128649#post10128649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Kelly
Darrell, have you been fully photo-documenting every bit of your research? I found the thread that you recently started over on reefsanctuary. If you are not building up a good base of visual proof from multiple examples, to show a progression of both the decline and reversal of the problem, it is going to be difficult to convince people that damaging light is the primary cause for the widespread demise of Elegance corals.
On your thick/thin tissue observation:
One reason the tissue may appear more "thin" in certain Elegance is that the tissue can be more saturated with zooxanthellae and the coral would be extending the tentacles more in an effort to spread out the zooxanthellae for capturing light. The spreading out would cause the tissue to appear more transparent and "thin". Tissue that appears more "thick" could be more saturated with fluorescent proteins that reflect light and cause the tissue to appear more opaque, which also makes the tissue appear more "thick". This would be more likely to occur in Elegance that receives more light and would not be extending quite as much, which would also condense the proteins and make the tissue look even more opaque.
Polyps of the same coral: Some of the tissue looks thin and transparent (blue arrows) and some of the tissue looks thick and opaque (center polyp).
Yes, I have more photos in my camera. For some reason I am unable to download the pics to my PC. I have a friend that is able to download them to his PC. He burns the pics to a cd, then I download them from the cd to my pc. This process has delayed me posting updated pics. This is also why some of the pics I have posted are from my phone. I can e-mail these pics to my pc. The quality stinks though.
In a different thread here on RC I made the mistake of telling people what I was doing. After explaining to them that I didn't want to post anything until I was sure what was going on, they talked me into posting this thread. As I explained in my original post, I was posting this prematurely. I took a wild guess at the skin thickness thing. I now wish I had never done that. The point I was trying to make was that these corals after being exposed to bright light, or a photo period that is to long, are damaged much easier than they should be. I now believe it has more to do with the damage caused by the excess oxygen build up in the corals tissues than anything else. This was my main concern in the begining. Through out this experiment I have come up with many theories only to prove myself wrong. I did not want to post something only to later find out that it was incorrect. This only damages the credibility of all the work I have done. Even if the reason these corals are damaged so easy is irrelevant to someone trying to keep one of these corals alive. All someone needs to know is that they are damaged easy. With this knowledge we can keep from placing them in with mobile animals that can cause them harm.
I have spent far more money than I can afford, and way to much of my time on this project to argue with people about what I have learned, like in the thread you talked about. I believe I can help people keep these corals alive. There are those that are interested in how I keep my corals alive. There is a thread on "Thereeftank" where I am talking about this and it is going very well so far. I will not be going back to "Reefsanctuary". I went back and deleted a great deal of what I posted on that sight.
As for nutrients, I recall it still having some nitrates and phosphates, definitely enough to make hair algae grow. This was about ten years ago, I don't recall what the parameters were, but I seem to think we'd be happy if nitrates were under 10ppm. Also, there was a lot less flow too than your modern day SPS tanks.
When people say that currently most elegance corals are collected from deeper waters, what exactly do you mean? Are they coming from 20 feet, 50 feet, etc? From what I understood in the past, most elegance corals were found in seagrass beds or laying on soft sediments. Seagrass itself doesn't grow in deep water since it is an angiosperm and supposedly needs bright light, at least fromwhat I understand (could be wrong of course)...
Just curious!
Jeff
When people say that currently most elegance corals are collected from deeper waters, what exactly do you mean? Are they coming from 20 feet, 50 feet, etc? From what I understood in the past, most elegance corals were found in seagrass beds or laying on soft sediments. Seagrass itself doesn't grow in deep water since it is an angiosperm and supposedly needs bright light, at least fromwhat I understand (could be wrong of course)...
Just curious!
Jeff
elegance coral
They call me EC
Wow! That's incredible!
elegance coral
They call me EC
I messed up yesturday. I came home and one of my corals were swollen and the tentacles were withdrawn. I panicked. This coral has been under the same lights for months and hasn't done this. I have been telling everyone this is due to light exposure and here this coral is doing it when he has had months to adjust to the lights he is under. I didn't know what else to do so I started changing water. After putting the last 5gl back into the tank I looked up and most of the corals were now doing the same thing. I was shocked. At first I didn't know what to think. It was very hot here in Florida yesterday. I had turned the thermostat in the house up before going to work. It was worm in the house when I got home and checked the tank. My RO is outside. I usually bring the water in the house a day or so before putting it in the tank. I was in a hurry this time so I just mixed it up and put it in the tank. I knew the water was worm but I assumed it wouldn't change the temp in the tank to much. Then I checked the temp. It was about 88. I opened the cabinet and pointed fans at the tank and sump. I started bagging up items from the freezer and placing them in the sump. My wife still doesn't know I put that frozen chicken in my tank. After thinking about this for a while it started making sense to me. I was right about the light causing this problem. It seems to be the excess oxygen produced by the algae that causes these symptoms. The elevated temp just magnified this problem. I feel much better about my position on this subject now, but I have knocked my corals back a few weeks if not months in the process.
John Kelly, have you noticed a connection between temp and your corals bleaching?
John Kelly, have you noticed a connection between temp and your corals bleaching?
redFishblue
New member
Elegance,
Can you elaborate what you mean by excess oxygen produced by algae that caused these problems? I had been following that it was too high par that an elegance was not acclimated to and thus burning it that was the problem.
poopsko24
I've seen indonesian elegance with the same meandering skeleton.
Can you elaborate what you mean by excess oxygen produced by algae that caused these problems? I had been following that it was too high par that an elegance was not acclimated to and thus burning it that was the problem.
poopsko24
I've seen indonesian elegance with the same meandering skeleton.
elegance coral
They call me EC
When the algae inside the coral is exposed to light they begin to produce O2 durring photosynthesis. The coral can use this O2 and produce CO2 for the algae. This relationship works great under normal circumstances. If the coral is moved to an environment with much more light the algae will begin to produce more O2 than the coral can use. This O2 can build up in the corals tissues causing damage to the cells in the coral. This is why corals bleach. It's not simply the light that causes it, but the overload of O2 in its system that is caused by the light. When I say a coral has been burnt, this is what I'm referrimg to. More O2 can be dissolved in water at higher temps. This is why all this becomes much more of a problem when the temp rises.
Maybe John Kelly can help me out here. He is much better at explaining these things than I am.
elegance coral
They call me EC
You are very correct. I am sorry for my misrepresentation of the facts. I read your post shortly after you posted it. I have been reading and studying everything I can get my hands on since then. I have posted questions here on the advanced forum, the chemistry forum, and on other sights. I have searched Google and read until I can't see anymore. It turns out that there has been a great deal of research into this subject since the El nino event that caused wide spread coral bleaching. The subject is much more complicated than the O2 poisoning I learned about years ago. The bottom line as far as we are concerned is still the same. Coral tissue can be badly damaged from exposure to bright lights and/or high temps. This is what the Elegance corals are going through. I am working on an updated theory and a video to show the effects of bright light on these corals.
John Kelly
Goniopora Aficionado
Sorry I haven't responded yet.
The problem has to do with the over-excitation of the zooxanthellae within the coral tissue from being placed under too high intensity of light (too much PAR/UVR). The photosynthetic cells within zooxanthellae produces oxygen. The oxygen absorbs the high light energy and is converted into forms of oxygen that is toxic or reactive to the cell walls and coral tissue. The cells produce anti-oxidants to counteract the reactive oxygen, but when there is a large amount of reactive oxygen produced quick, it can instantly cause internal damage to the coral. This is why it is always important to properly acclimate corals to the lights. Oxidative stress damage is one of the major problems to overcome when keeping certain species of Goniopora. It looks like it may be one of the major problems with certain Elegance too. I would also guess that it often causes tip burn in certain sps corals.
Serioussnaps
New member
I think we all know this by now...but this goes to your theory. An article where Borneman discusses briefly the collection areas for Cataphyllia in Indonesia. Very low light, sand is matted with cyano....low light, high nutrient. He even stated that he would be suprised that corals heavily dependent on zooxanthellae would be able to survive in this area....but there are tons of elegances collected in this area and the like.
For your reading:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/3/aafeature/view?searchterm=None
For your reading:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/3/aafeature/view?searchterm=None
Serioussnaps
New member
Does this mean anything to you elegance coral?
"A parasitic gall crab has recently been found beneath the tissue of almost all Catalaphyllia examined with this condition (Shimek pers comm, www.rshimek.com)."
"A parasitic gall crab has recently been found beneath the tissue of almost all Catalaphyllia examined with this condition (Shimek pers comm, www.rshimek.com)."
elegance coral-
have another question for you. I had picked up a small elegance coral at the LFS that was mostly brown, i.e. very little GFP. I put it under a mix of the 10K and 14K and it shrunk up and wouldn't expand after a couple days. I moved it to the back under indirect 14K light and it is opening some. It does produce quite a bit of slime overnight and I blow it off in the AM. Basically its oral disc will open after the lights have been on for a couple hours and tentacles are short little "nubs". It sounds a lot like the ones you have had and are "rehabbing". It also did not do the routine where it swells up like a ballon.
My question is... is this always lethal, or do they eventually recover? I have not seen any tissue recession from the skeleton and have not seen any bleaching. it just won't open and expand its tentacles. It did produce some of the "white spiderweb" stuff for a few days, but has ceased doing that. It has been this way for about three weeks and isn't getting any worse. Moving it to a lower lighting has helped some...
have another question for you. I had picked up a small elegance coral at the LFS that was mostly brown, i.e. very little GFP. I put it under a mix of the 10K and 14K and it shrunk up and wouldn't expand after a couple days. I moved it to the back under indirect 14K light and it is opening some. It does produce quite a bit of slime overnight and I blow it off in the AM. Basically its oral disc will open after the lights have been on for a couple hours and tentacles are short little "nubs". It sounds a lot like the ones you have had and are "rehabbing". It also did not do the routine where it swells up like a ballon.
My question is... is this always lethal, or do they eventually recover? I have not seen any tissue recession from the skeleton and have not seen any bleaching. it just won't open and expand its tentacles. It did produce some of the "white spiderweb" stuff for a few days, but has ceased doing that. It has been this way for about three weeks and isn't getting any worse. Moving it to a lower lighting has helped some...
elegance coral
They call me EC
Thanks again John Kelly. Your help is proving to be very valuable. I can't thank you enough.
Serioussnaps, thanks for the link. I have seen the article and I have another thread in the "Responsible Reefkeeping" forum where someone else linked the same article. I have one small problem with this article. He shows two pics of Elegance corals swelling up with their tentacles withdrawn. He claims that they are caused by two different situations. I see no evidence to back up such a claim. This is merely an assumption, and an incorrect one at that. As far as the depth is concerned I have to believe him. I would assume that if he's scuba diving he knows his approximate depth. He states that these corals are coming from as much as 114 feet deep. This is incredibly deep for a coral. I don't think it is even arguable that these corals would have issues acclimating to bright MH lighting. It is dark at 114 ft. I agree with Borenman again, that it is amazing they could even survive at such depths. The high nutrients and/or the great depth could explain the corals stunted growth that he noted.
gsellers1245
In Memoriam
just a suggestion keep some full frozen water bottles for the next time that happens that way you can drop them in your sump and it'll cool the temp down ok.
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