Emperor Angelfish- hopefully eventually a pair

[tcmfish]

I wrote this in the other thread... Seachem makes cupramine, one of the best copper treatments. I would use it for ich. It is easier on the fish than other copper treatments. If you are going through all this trouble (QTing for so long and having a fishless display) I don't see why it is a big deal to treat with cupramine. You clearly have time to treat with it.

Kieth already stated what you can use paraguard for and what you can use to kill ich, but...

Also not trying to knock you or seachem and you are right seachem is a very good company.

 

[RBU1]

I wrote this in the other thread... Seachem makes cupramine, one of the best copper treatments. I would use it for ich. It is easier on the fish than other copper treatments. If you are going through all this trouble (QTing for so long and having a fishless display) I don't see why it is a big deal to treat with cupramine. You clearly have time to treat with it.

Kieth already stated what you can use paraguard for and what you can use to kill ich, but...

Also not trying to knock you or seachem and you are right seachem is a very good company.

If Seachem is telling me that treating my tank for 3-4 weeks with Paraguard will rid the fish and tank of parasites why would I subject the fish to copper as well? Should I not trust what they are telling me?

 

[Kieth71]

I am not sure what cloraquine is but if it is the same as quinine sulfate and the fish you have was treated with it something was done improperly or not long enough.This stuff works great for ich period.I never trust others to do my qting for me for the very reason you stated.If paraguard actually did work it would be great as it is very mild on the fish but i have yet to see anyone who would make such a claim.I need lab results not a claim ona bottle.I can find many bottles at my lfs that have reef safe medications that state the same thing.The problem with us at home is that we dont have the ability to do a gill scraping on a fish to actually see if something works.We have to rely on how the fish looks and acts.This is why i will stick with what i know is effective.I should also add that i am not bashing seachem either.I use so many of their products from the salt i use,test kits,cupramine and as i stated before paraguard in some situations.I just dont think paraguard is useful in this situation.

 

[RBU1]

I am not sure what cloraquine is but if it is the same as quinine sulfate and the fish you have was treated with it something was done improperly or not long enough.This stuff works great for ich period.I never trust others to do my qting for me for the very reason you stated.If paraguard actually did work it would be great as it is very mild on the fish but i have yet to see anyone who would make such a claim.I need lab results not a claim ona bottle.I can find many bottles at my lfs that have reef safe medications that state the same thing.The problem with us at home is that we dont have the ability to do a gill scraping on a fish to actually see if something works.We have to rely on how the fish looks and acts.This is why i will stick with what i know is effective.I should also add that i am not bashing seachem either.I use so many of their products from the salt i use,test kits,cupramine and as i stated before paraguard in some situations.I just dont think paraguard is useful in this situation.

OK shold I trust Seachem treat for another week with Paraguard making my treatment 28 days then monitor the fish??? Or should I just stop the paraguard and start a Cupramine treatment. I hate to keep treating the fish if in deed the Paraguard will work as Seachem claims....BTW Paraguard is not reef safe.

 

[NexDog]

I would go with a proven method. You don't want to do this a third time. Or you can be our Paraguard guninea pig.

 

[RBU1]

I would go with a proven method. You don't want to do this a third time. Or you can be our Paraguard guninea pig.

I really don't want to do it a third time.......I am just having a hard time understanding why Seachem would guarentee that it will work for me...If it will not

 

[jnc914]

I really don't want to do it a third time.......I am just having a hard time understanding why Seachem would guarentee that it will work for me...If it will not

You keep saying Seachem will "guarantee" Paraguard will work. Will they pay for all the livestock that will die in the process? What is their compensation if the guarantee fails? Bottom line, Seachem wants you to continue to buy its product. Ask them to provide actual research findings on how effective their product is. Here is a more effective method if you are so set on using Paraguard. I have used Paraguard in conjunction with Hyposalinity; that is how I got of ich in my display about a year ago. In addition to a large UV and Ozone, and weekly water changes. Using Paraguard alone will not "kill all parasites in the tank", it's bogus info. I have not had another ich outbreak since. I am not a big fan of copper, it can be harsh on tangs and angels. That being said cupramine is the least harsh form of copper if you choose that route. I only use copper in a QT system.

BTW, I read about the Achille's I sold you several months ago. To say I was bummed would be an understatement. You should have contacted me prior to treating the fish. I have only ever used hypo with the Achille's and never once had an issue with it. Copper is too harsh on an Achilles IMO. I read your above statements about finally utilizing a QT system. Good luck with your future fish acquisitions. Remember, QT is our friend. :rollface:

 

[RBU1]

You keep saying Seachem will "guarantee" Paraguard will work. Will they pay for all the livestock that will die in the process? What is their compensation if the guarantee fails? Bottom line, Seachem wants you to continue to buy its product. Ask them to provide actual research findings on how effective their product is. Here is a more effective method if you are so set on using Paraguard. I have used Paraguard in conjunction with Hyposalinity; that is how I got of ich in my display about a year ago. In addition to a large UV and Ozone, and weekly water changes. Using Paraguard alone will not "kill all parasites in the tank", it's bogus info. I have not had another ich outbreak since. I am not a big fan of copper, it can be harsh on tangs and angels. That being said cupramine is the least harsh form of copper if you choose that route. I only use copper in a QT system.

BTW, I read about the Achille's I sold you several months ago. To say I was bummed would be an understatement. You should have contacted me prior to treating the fish. I have only ever used hypo with the Achille's and never once had an issue with it. Copper is too harsh on an Achilles IMO. I read your above statements about finally utilizing a QT system. Good luck with your future fish acquisitions. Remember, QT is our friend. :rollface:

You are not the only one that is bumbed about the achilles along with all my other fish. I have been trying to do the right thing and it keep biting me in the a$$.....The 300 has been fishless since Aug but I did add some inverts from the wholesaler and corals from a fellow reefer. So just to be safe I figured another couple months after I added that stuff. I have been getting advice on treating from several different people. The person that was helping me felt copper was good to use so I went with it. The achilles made it thru one copper treatment but when I got the copper out after 14 days the ich came back on him. So I assumed I did not have the copper level high enough and went a little higher. Well apparently that was to high....That is part of the reason why I felt safer going with Paraguard. I only have a juvi emp angel, 2 black and white clowns and a cleaner wrasse left. That would mean I now have to take a chance and subject them to the copper now. I will use cupramine as the copper but there is always the chance...
So I guess you also feel I should use the cupramine instead of the paraguard....
I would have contacted you but i did not have your username and phone number any longer.....Believe me I hate when fish dont make it...ask my wife...

 

[Blownsvt]

haydn have you noticed any issues with them eating at corals or your inverts? i would love to get an emperor for my tank someday.

 

[WuHT]

i've actualyl used paraguard instead of copper for some "ich" like disease... and cupramine failed , so my backup plan was paraguard which WORKED (down to my last remaining fish).

Needless to say, if one doesn't work hope you're fast to realize it

 

[RBU1]

i've actualyl used paraguard instead of copper for some "ich" like disease... and cupramine failed , so my backup plan was paraguard which WORKED (down to my last remaining fish).

Needless to say, if one doesn't work hope you're fast to realize it

Well the fish are all clean. I wonder if I just finish up the next 2 weeks of Paraguard making it a 28 day treatment then just monitor the fish for the next month in the QT.

 

[Blownsvt]

any update on your emps? i am seriously considering getting one

 

[haydn]

any update on your emps? i am seriously considering getting one

Sorry with all the WS medicine discussion I missed your previous post.

Both emps are still with me, feeding well. The adult is still dominating the juvi without bullying it. Although if the juvi gets too cocky (teenagers-HUH) the adult shows it who's boss. The adult has started grunting which I understand is a sign of sexual maturity (over to the experts)

I haven't seen either of them touching my SPS, i have a few zoas and a clam none of them are being touched. I have noticed a reduction in aptasia and majanos (I had a few hard to reach ones) whether they are eating the big ones or their offspring I'm not sure.

My recommendation would be if you have SPS go for it, if you have fleshy LPS then you need to consider which you would rather have-LPS or an emp.

 

[Blownsvt]

Sorry with all the WS medicine discussion I missed your previous post.

Both emps are still with me, feeding well. The adult is still dominating the juvi without bullying it. Although if the juvi gets too cocky (teenagers-HUH) the adult shows it who's boss. The adult has started grunting which I understand is a sign of sexual maturity (over to the experts)

I haven't seen either of them touching my SPS, i have a few zoas and a clam none of them are being touched. I have noticed a reduction in aptasia and majanos (I had a few hard to reach ones) whether they are eating the big ones or their offspring I'm not sure.

My recommendation would be if you have SPS go for it, if you have fleshy LPS then you need to consider which you would rather have-LPS or an emp.

yeah i am considering an emp. I alos already have a double saddle butterfly which i think i can mix with some LPS but the SPS is a no no with that fish as far i i recall. Seems like some people are able to get away with mixing some things that traditional should not be mixed. I guess i will to a bit more research. i thought the issue with emps is that they like to pick on the inverts and crustateans.

 

[haydn]

i thought the issue with emps is that they like to pick on the inverts and crustateans.

I think like most fish they are individual and you need to make a decision on what is more important to you. All I can say is my two seem to be well behaved with the stock I have in my system.

i have kept regals and majestics as well emperors with SPS without any problems. i did try a harem of flame angels once but that was a total disaster with my SPS (but I'm sure other people have had different experiances)

 

[phil519]

haydn...how about some more pics?

a harem of flame angels....wow...

 

[haydn]

a harem of flame angels....wow...

Yes I had a male and 4 females-the behaviour and interaction between the group was facinating to watch-The male would wander all over the tank but each of the females had a defined area (except at meal times) I think my SPS could have coped with the predation of 1 or 2 fish but 5 was just too many and the corals suffered. The fish went to a 10' softy tank where they are happily living today.

...how about some more pics?

Its a little difficult to get good pictures of the emps at the moment

there's a big box in the way:rolleye1: with a (hopefully) female regal in there, note the male checking her out:love1:

 

[tly]

Beautiful fish you have there Haydn. I saw you try to pair the regal angels and I have some questions for you if you do not mind since I wanted to do the same. The first question is, how can you tell the sex? and the second is, what is the process? Thanks.

 

[haydn]

Beautiful fish you have there Haydn. I saw you try to pair the regal angels and I have some questions for you if you do not mind since I wanted to do the same. The first question is, how can you tell the sex? and the second is, what is the process? Thanks.

i did 'pair' regals angels but after about a year the female died. So i was left with a male.

How to sex them- according to perceived wisdom-the male has larger and colourful gill spines and has a slightly more elongated, less rounded body. It is difficult to tell when there is one but easier if there are 3-4 for comparison. The gill spines difference is much more obvious.

The process is to source two you think are male and female, place them in an environment where they can see each other and watch the reaction. They will show to each other with the male being more dominent. After a while you will see less aggresive showing and more 'fin flicking' and they will stay close to each other. When you are confident put the male in with the female and watch closely, there will be shows of dominence from the male (chasing, etc) but no actual damaging. If there is then you may have a split them again for a while and try again. There isn't a set timetable for this-with my last pair it took less than a week but With this pair I think it may be a little longer.

The most important thing is to have an 'exit' stragity i.e. if they don't bond then one or both need to be sold or returned to the shop. I am lucky my LFS has agreed that if my latest pair don't bond then I can take one back to the shop.

 

[tly]

Thanks Haydn for the great information. Once again your fish selection is awesome, and i will keep following this thread to learn as much as possible from experience hobbyist as yourself and others from this great forum.