Ethics of keeping captive reef-dwelling animals - is there a more rigorous analysis?

mrwilson

New member
My instinct, which I know is shared by most people who frequent the Reef Central boards, is that as aquarists, it is our duty to provide at least reasonably good care for the animals in our charge. E.g., that they be provided a home in which their basic needs are met for a timeframe approximating the animals' natural lifespans.

This assumption underpins almost all of the discussions about whether certain animals are better left in the ocean, whether a given tank is overstocked, and whether a given tank size is appropriate for particular species. The argument of the much-discussed "Tang Police," for instance, centers on their belief that tangs are unlikely to thrive without adequate unimpeded swimming room. Importantly, the argument is not that it would be merely unwise or imprudent to keep a tang in a 55g or whatever. Rather, the view is that it would be unethical to do so.

(There are other arguments with respect to certain rare or endangered species, but I leave those aside for now. I am concerned instead with the general ethical questions surrounding reef inhabitants that are commonly available to consumers.)

Although I tend to share this general view, I find it difficult to articulate precisely why. It cannot be that I believe it to be ethically wrong to outright kill fish, even for consumption - I eat seafood, including large finfish, all the time. Moreover, I apparently do not care much about the humane treatment of such animals, either, as I honestly do not consider whatsoever the treatment that may have befallen such animals before they arrived on my dinner plate. For what reason, then, should I feel differently about the fish in my own aquarium? It certainly won't do to say that they shouldn't be killed (or merely neglected) because they're pretty.

And as for animals that we might reasonably consider to be among the "lower" orders of animals, the simpler animals such as corals, anemones, and other invertebrates: in my daily life I think nothing of killing land-dwelling but perhaps analogous animals such as insects if they inconvcenience me by appearing in my home. Why then should I care anything about the treatment of perhaps similar "simple" animals in home aquaria? (By "simpler," I speak only to their capability for sentience, or self-awareness - or more accurately, their presumed lack thereof.)

(Again, I put aside the conservation argument that urges captive propagation of corals, which is about something different.)

One possible argument that I've considered is that one ought to take good care of the animals in one's care not so much for the sake of the animals, but for one's own sake. I think that a good argument perhaps can be made that when one mistreats or neglects a reef dwelling animal (even a simple one) in one's care, one thereby degrades oneself. And perhaps the corollary is also true: that it is ennobling to tend well these living creatures.

But I said I was looking for more philosophical and analytical rigor, and so far, I haven't really made an argument at all - just a bald assertion that sounds nice.

I'm not sure that the common view on this issue (which I share) can be defended without resort to some pretty absolutist animal rights views which neither I nor many other aquarists share. But I hope it can be, and I look forward to thoughtful responses about this.
 
For my philosophy requirement in college I took "Introduction to Logic" so that may preclude my jumping in here (grin) but....I've always been fascinated by this topic.
I can't speak to all of your post, but you hit on something that has been discussed before - by Aristotle in his "Scala Naturae". I discussed it briefly at a graduate seminar I gave last week on Collection planning and aquarium ethics:

“The Scale of Nature” â€"œ Ranking of all nature
Or: the preferential application of animal rights and animal welfare issues (i.e. their relative importance) to different taxa.

EVERYONE draws a line in the sand at one point or another!

Most people would abhor harming a dog, but see no issue in stepping on a cockroach!

Where is your line? Is it defensible? Does it change depending on circumstances?


I then dabbled in the idea of "consumptive use" -

All Aquariums, (both public and private) consume wildlife.

Animals are taken from the wild and are never returned.

Is this take from the wild justified?

Some environmental groups would say no, based on animal rights issues.

Others would argue that any take, for any reason, is not justifiable based on ecological concerns.

Most people understand that animals removed from the wild will serve a greater good when exhibited for educational reasons at a public aquarium.

What about those animals taken for use by private aquarists? Some would argue that since only the aquarium owner and a few guests are able to view these animals, it is a selfish use of wildlife. Others maintain that the increased awareness of the natural world offsets the relatively minor "take".


Jay
 
Thanks for the post, Jay (I was a philosophy major in college which gives me just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and almost certainly should preclude me from posting on this topic, ha, ha).

You're right that everyone draws the line somewhere in terms of how one may treat particular sorts of animals. I am searching for a justifiable basis for the commonly held belief (held, tenuously, by me too) that the line should be drawn in favor of care that approximates nature as best it can be approximated in the case of common reef aquarium inhabitants, when that same line is not drawn, nor even considered, by most of us for most other ocean inhabitants, such as fish and shellfish that most of us, including me, consume for food.

I actually think it makes good sense to make distinctions among animals when determining in what ways it is morally permissable for us to treat them. Your example about the dog and the cockroach doesn't trouble me, and I doubt it troubles many. A chimpanzee, for example, so far as we can tell, is an obviously sentient creature aware of its surroundings and capable not only of feeling pain and pleasure, but also emotions like loneliness and sadness. Because of those qualities, it seems to me that keeping such a creature in captivity requires using best efforts to ensure that the animal thrives. Whereas keeping a flea or an amoeba - or a coral or an anemone, and maybe even a fish - seems to me to be far less morally problematic, if it is problematic at all. It appears to me that unless one adopts what I and most others would consider to be an extreme, absolutist position: that all animal life is equally worthy, and perhaps equally worthy as human life (a position that I assume would also preclude having animals as pets, including aquarium animals), then one is "stuck" trying to make distinctions among different animals.

It seems to me that the best basis for making such distinctions is the animal's apparent capacity for self-awareness. Once self-awareness is thought to be present, then the inquiry moves to the animal's apparent capacity for feeling pain or emotion. (Without self-awareness - without a "self" - then no pain or emotion, or any feeling of anything, is possible (because there is no self there, no "feel-er," there to do the feeling).)

*Note that we can never know with certainty whether an animal is self-aware. (Likewise, we can't know what it's like to be a bat, in the sense of having the conscious experience of a bat.) All we have to go on is what the animal reveals to us by its behavior and what we know about the animal's physiology, and so our knowledge is inevitably imperfect. Some would say that is reason enough to err on the side of caution and treat all animals the way we'd treat a chimpanzee.
 
You were a philosophy major in college mrwilson? I never would have guessed it! :p I'll make a more informed post tomorrow - when I'm sober.
 
You may want to get the April's FAMA. In it there is a discussion about the ethics of keeping fish and more specifically harvesting coral. If you think what this industry is doing to the reefs is bad in any way shape or form look up coral mining. What we do is literally a drop in the bucket, and, at least we have the hope of returning or at least at some point not requiring input from the wild as each year hobbyists are propogating more and more species.
 
I doubt that the "possibility" of a fish having feelings is what drives any of us to treat fish humanely. I would bet 95% of all the reefers on here eat fish. The reason we treat the fish in our tanks with great care is due to three factors:

1. They are expensive
2. There is a sense of responsibility
3. For the challenge
4. Power

You might also say that there is a sense of power that motivates as well. We want to recreate a reef aquarium not because the reef/world/ocean/animals need us to do that. It is an ecosystem that we have "created" and we get to play God in that world.

For me it is definitely for the challenge combined with power. :)
 
I think you guys all think like Americans and end users.
I work from the other side and I can tell you that the locals trying to make a living and feed their families are the best reason to put marine livestock in play.
They have their own fisheries departments that can answer the sustainability concerns if they want and they can ban items if they want.
CITES also steps in as a stopgap if there is too much greed running amuck and finally, market reccesion and slow times in summer slow things down.
For people who claim to care about the animals and the reefs....you need to get over there and deal with local people for a change and then see how you change your mind from a detached, non people oriented eco-elitist to an involved social thinker who also cares about the villagers coral reefs.
Steve
 
Maybe I'm cold hearted but I have never felt a difference between the fish (mostly tuna or salmon) I eat or the tang or damsel that met it's fate in my tank. Do I try to take good care of them? Of course I do. But it doesn't make me feel "unethical" when it goes wrong. If someone purposely or knowingly did harm to an animal that served no use, as in wasn't being eaten or for the pleasure of watching it (as in the case of your reef tank) then that is cruel. Exactly where do you draw the line?
 
Steve, thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious for all of us to see. And I doubt any of us would have even considered it unless you mentioned it. I bet some people would argue the ethical value of those same people you support.

The whole issue of morality about reefkeeping is just reeking of supercillious posturing.

We do not care much about the animals we keep. For many the fish and corals are just like plastic decorations on a shelf. Some might be more or less empathic for the pets we keep, but we still see all of these creatures as commodities.

At least we name some of our fish. Ever name a coral? Comodities.

We do care about our own sense of self worth. We judge ourselves based on many different trials and tests all day long. As Reefers, we have to keep our tanks healthy and our fish and corals should grow. Fail at this and we are diminished in our own eyes a little.

We have come together as a community to help develop a common view of what a good and succesful reefkeeper is like. This is not for anyones benefit but to glorify ourselves in private (often alone).

We bicker some among ourselves, but are surprisingly well behaved. After all, we want to be respected dont we?

Our tank should be clean, it should have expensive lighting and filtration. The more name brand recognition we can posses, the better our equipment. Intensive maintenance is required. Water changes weekly, algae scraping daily. We have to keep in contact with our obligations right? The whole tank should be in show condition constantly. Not that anyone else ever looks at the thing. Our families and significant others often despise the tanks. The tank is to please us. Let us not even discuss the cost and appeal of designer corals.....

All of this is to indulge ourselves.

We do not care about the people living in poverty elsewhere in the world. They are poor because they are lazy.(right?) They should get a real job and raise themselves out of squalor. (We would if it were us?)

And those people should behave like we want them to. They should not do things we used to do that we now feel sorta guilty about. They should do what we say and not what we do.

They should be thankful we are willing to tell them how to live their lives (and how terrible their lives are). We sometimes even donate to charities that send them stuff (right?)

Our utter lack of compasion for the people living in those parts of the world we wish to change shows our true nature. We never even considered them did we? It is all about us.

Me, me, me, me , me............
 
We are no different and if in the same situations would no doubt do the same.
But our favorite business people determine to a large extent how the fish are put in motion.
Educated people who speak English, procure and distribute cyanide for example in Indonesia and Bali...then collectors get blamed for it.

We had some heat on em for awhile in Bali until the reef trade developed. Then the biggest cyanide dealers became popular because of the coral they also ship.
Then for 100% business reasons they started selling farmed coral........ and cyanide fish at the same time...and their stateside buyers took it easy on em and turned a blind eye.
"Frag a finger, cyanide a reef" environmentalism is here and memorized by all seeking to show them selves in a semi-environmental light and assuage guilt.

Netcaught fish and farmed coral are a nice combination...but very unpopular...
Hail environmentalism, eh?
Steve
PS.
Feed a fisherman...buy wildcaught.
 
Although there are some posts here in which all sorts of other (perfectly worthy and interesting) issues are raised, such as sustainablility and other environmental concerns, I've been trying to answer quite a different question, and it's fairly narrow:

Is there any analytical distinction between the fish we eat (the demise of which we not only don't know any details, but we also don't care, if we're honest) and the fish we display in our tanks, about which we not only care, but about which we frequently, right here on this message board, call out other reefers as unethical if those fish aren't treated in just the right way. If someone puts a tang in a 55 and mentions it on the message boards, that decision will be met not only with ridicule, in the sense that the decision was unwise, but he will also be met with outright scorn, in the sense that doing so was downright unethical. (And admittedly, I feel the same moral disapproval, although I try not to express it on the message board.) So the question is: Is there any real basis, any supportable rationale, for that moral disapproval?

sherm71tank, given your post in which you state "Maybe I'm cold hearted but I have never felt a difference between the fish (mostly tuna or salmon) I eat or the tang or damsel that met it's fate in my tank," clearly your view is that the moral disapproval I've described is utterly unsupportable. But I have no doubt that you are in the distinct minority in feeling like there isn't a meaningful difference between the tuna on your plate and the tang in your tank.

But you may well be right, and that's the worry that caused me to start this thread in the first place. I haven't been able to articulate a reason why I should hold the view I currently hold, and indeed, I don't think we've seen any kind of well-reasoned, full-throated defense of the "tang police" view yet.

Given how frequently it's articulated, I'm fairly surprised we haven't seen a good argument yet in its favor. Anybody else care to give it a shot?
 
I don't mean it's morally unsupportable just that it doesn't mean anything to me. If I can make a choice that keeps me and my kids alive then all is well! Morales are something that makes me different from a fish. Maybe I can eat a fish that is endangered, if I choose to eat one that is not endangered that makes my choice more morale. A tang will eat algae like no tomorrow and does not care if I die because it (mainly in that it doesn't know it should care). If I know I can eat algae off a stick and get the same nutrients as I could from a steak. . . . . I am choosing the steak because I like it's taste.
 
Not to be too simplistic...but. I maintain a reef not for moral superiority, but rather as a defence to the incongruities of the world. It's an extended version of the dog meeting me at the front door at the end of my work day. He doesn't care what troubles I've met or what dragons I've slayed. He's just happy to see me. And I, him.
A reef is a state of zen. I have mine because it brings harmony to my world. I'll always remember the first reef I was fortunate to dive on and would like to have a tiny sliver of that in my day. Every day.
We all have our reasons for loving reefs.
Dewey
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12270611#post12270611 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrwilson

Is there any analytical distinction between the fish we eat (the demise of which we not only don't know any details, but we also don't care, if we're honest) and the fish we display in our tanks, about which we not only care, but about which we frequently, right here on this message board, call out other reefers as unethical if those fish aren't treated in just the right way. If someone puts a tang in a 55 and mentions it on the message boards, that decision will be met not only with ridicule, in the sense that the decision was unwise, but he will also be met with outright scorn, in the sense that doing so was downright unethical. (And admittedly, I feel the same moral disapproval, although I try not to express it on the message board.) So the question is: Is there any real basis, any supportable rationale, for that moral disapproval?

No.
Its a slight case of cognitive dissonance and a big case of out of sight out of mind.
It seems to be more of a social disapproval than anything else.

And I have a Philosophy degree... so there! :D


BTW, I think the only real justification for this hobby is "I want/like it". Anything else is a rationalization. Don't get me wrong, 'I want/like it' is fine in my book, as long as we're honest about it because being honest about it seems to effect our choices in positive ways.
 
id have to say there isn't much basis for moral disapproval, beyond the whole extremist thing. the fact that the human race is still alive and eating various types of meat proves its a sustainable diet. yet we keep all different forms of life as pets...and for the most part don't eat them yet there all made of major staple of mankind's diet (meat).


and i just really don't see any middle ground on this subject as it already been said, outside of a public aquarium there really isn't any rational reason for the reef tanks we all have and love so much.

so i say go ahead and grab that fish sandwich and gaze at the new *fill in the blank* that you just tossed in the tank and try to ignore the eco-extremanazis.....but thats just my opinion and im one of the 5% that don't eat sea food, but the reef tank has nothing to do with that hehe. so i guess that just makes me nuts......
 
Its not all about us.
Local peoples own the fish first and want to sell them to someone. Preferably someone who can pay for them...
Those people then own them and look abroad for others with money to buy them.

We foreigners don't enter into the picture until they have been bought and sold already...sometimes twice.
They belong to fishers who would be killing other, less sustainable marinelife if not fishing for tropicals.
Most tropicals are year old fishes...most predator food fish are older and in greater trouble.
We have little say in the matter except as scattered consumers who could not unite and agree on the color cow poo let alone drive the market to our current version of sustainability.
The fish we buy feeds fishers and their families which is a positive thing from the get go.
Steve
 
If I could buy direct from the collector I would agree that the fish we buy would be a positive thing from the get go. Since the COC is so long and arduous, and the pay that the local collectors is so low, the positive seems quite mitigated.
 
Back
Top