Ethics vs Mortality - A Discussion

[MUCHO REEF]

I want to pose a series of questions for the sole purpose of debate and discussion. We can all agree to disagree and still be civil and respectful. That said, I want to hear what each of you have to say on the topic in question.


As everyone can clearly see, the desire to keep zoanthids and palythoas has grown exponentially over the past 2 or 3 years. The quest to have this polyp or that polyp is all the rage now and it has brought polyp keeping to the forefront I think as something to be desired. As with any coral purchase, knowledge of the coral's environmental requirements are equally as important as the quest to own them. Also, it's an unavoidable fact that all polyps from multiple regions around the globe will not fair well in every tank. The notion that polyps are very hardy and almost indestructible is a myth and simply put, not true. Polyps can, do and will succumb even in what we consider optimal conditions, why? The challenge is trying to accommodate the needs of those polyps which come from varying regions, shallow water vs deeper water, low nutrient vs high nutrient area, chaotic high flow vs low flow areas, near run offs vs pristine areas of collection. Polyps with longer skirts/tentacles can tolerate higher flow/currents than shorter skirted polyps. So the challenge is there to find the right mixed within your system to keep a host of polyps from different regions happy.

Anyone who has kept polyps for any great length of time has loss a frag or colony here and there for absolutely no explainable reason. You've done everything correctly, all other polyps were doing well, yet your favorite frag or colony went downhill overnight and never came back. You may have even purchased that same variant over and over again and each time it was met with eventual mortality.

So here's my question.

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

Hope to hear from everyone on this topic.


Mucho Reef

 

[landlord]

My answers....

1. Personally I would not. I look at it this way. I have no idea if it is a shallow water, deep water, clear water, murky, etc... I am buying or trading for the color and or look. If is doesn't make it, it wasn't meant to be. I would feel even worse if I killed the same polyp twice.

2. That's a touchy one. Since I do not believe IMO that polyps are self aware I have no moral / ethical obligation to them. Probably shouldn't have answered that question.

3. No comment. To do something more than once and continue to fail and continue to do the same thing just doesn't make sense to me. Stop buying that coral

4. As a seller or trader I think that there is an ethical obligation to disclose any information known (to oneself) about a specimen you wish to sell or trade. That's how I do business, that's how I like business done with me. If the polyp needs a tablespoon of honey to sleep at night, I'll tell them. So far for me, it's still about making friendships not money. When I cross that line I repost. If I can figure out how to do both I'll bottle it!

Thanks --landlord

 

[flyyyguy]

1. Its up to the individual. I buy only aquacultured frags from fellow hobbyists so I have no remorse over failure. although I am stubborn and will continue to try. The only difference is after losign the same coral a couple of times with no obvious reason I will no longer buy it. It has to come in a trade. Darth mauls and ORA purple pillow are two at the front for me. I am on my 4th try at darth mauls and 4th try on the pillow at the moment. Ive had the DM's for two months and have had a couple of babies(they are in a new polyp only tank I built), and on the pillow I have had it 4 months and it is finally starting to explode for me and I am pleased. The others never made it past the first month.

2. If a aquacultured frag non issue IMO. The torturing and killing of the animal I suppose is a little unethical. I hereby apologize to all of the animals I have tortured and killed since I have been in this hobby. I didnt do it on purpose I promise.

3. Absolutely. If you dont try different methods with the same coral that you have failed on then its kind of silly to try. Different methods doesnt necessarily mean a different system. Granted if we are talking temperate issues, then the only hope of succeeding is overcompensating on something else that will give the coral the strength to overcome what you cant provide in said tank

4. Again. This is a aquacultured vs wild question for the most part(torturing and killing aside).
If you are trying to find out different ways to keep difficult corals then it is for the good of everyone if you willingly share like most of us do. I mean c'mon.......none of our friends really appreciate our hard work and sweat. For someone like me who has pretty much zero reefing friends who are anywhere near as deep into this as me within a couple hundred miles, it is the boards where I share and learn

 

[seapug]

1. I'll try something a couple times but if it fails to survive after that, I usually assume there is something wrong with my tank params or placement that I'm not aware of-- i.e.-- "my fault"

2. I don't have any moral issues with killing a zoa polyp. They are less a sentient creature than an ant or mosquito and the vast majority I buy are aquacultured so I don't feel like I'm needlessly destroying a natural habitat if I fail to to keep it alive. It's more of an issue of wasting money for me.

3. Of course. If you have no interest in improving your ability to take care of things you are either have too much money or no appreciation for what you are trying to achieve with a reef tank.

4. See number 2. Zoas aren't reef building corals and are among the easiest marine creatures to propagate in captivity, so I don't think there is much of an issue with habitat destruction, nor do I really consider them cute little fuzzy creatures. They are barely above plants, evolution-wise. Again, for me it's mostly an issue of wasting money and the satisfaction that comes from seeing them grow and thrive in my tank (or disappointment in seeing them wither and die).

 

[the808state]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

Personally i would not do this. I would possible try a second time, but never a third or fourth.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

I think one should do as you mention in question #3

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

After the second failed attempt i would research the piece. Research other's experiance and compare set-ups.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

i take that responsibility upon myself and my actions

 

[Kigs]

“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”

 

[PaintGuru]

1. No, I will stop because it is a waste of money, not morally wrong.
2. Yes, but see question #3...I don't have any moral issues with killing them.
3. Yes
4. See question #3. I have no problem killing them if I make an effort to learn how to keep them alive. I don't think I will start poking one just to cause it pain though.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Re: Ethics vs Mortality - A Discussion

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

Maybe twice, after that I'm done. Unless of course I feel I know what the problem was and have done something to remedy it.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

Corals, especially wild reef building corals I have a problem with. Heck, even non reef building corals. Zoanthids... unless there is some polyp that almost never lives for anyone I don't have a problem with it. If people are doing this with an aquacultured zoanthid... it's their money they're wasting and I could care less.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

I think every person should reasearch every livestock purchase for their aquarium before they buy it. It's one of the sad things about this hobby, buy first, ask questions later.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

With most things for our tanks, yes, I believe it is.

 

[LoudProudNPunk]

Re: Ethics vs Mortality - A Discussion

1. I personally have never done this. But only for money reasons. For the most part i know why they did and i am confident that my system can be kept to a point where any and all polyps can thrive.

2. sure, zoanthids are not rare. These things grow like weeds, its not like they are killing a bald eagle. I would say purchasing over and over again with it dieing every time is just a sign of incompetence for the husbandry of corals, and maybe low intellect, not bad morals.

3. Personally i dont beleive that any polyp has such high survival needs that it needs to be further looked into before purchase. Most specific polyp "needs" will only help the zoanthid look nicer. Anyone who can take care of one polyp can most likely take care of the next. Also zoanthids and palys can adjust well if you find out later they like low light or w/e.

4. personally, i love zoanthids. I always try to care for them to the best of my ability and i think most reefers are that way. But i dont find it to be anyones responsibility. I consider it a fair trade to look at them.


-
Matt

 

[canelita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13187573#post13187573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kigs
“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”

so true.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?


My answer would be a resounding NO. If it failed the first time, I'm going to check all my parameters, get back with the source I purchased it from, review the environment it came from, check with others who might have the same variant. Yes, I do this if and when I have a new failure. Instant mortality upon arrival is far different from a polyp/frag or colony which does well initially , then slowly declines over time. If I loss something the second time around, I won't buy it again until I know for sure why it did poorly in my system. There is often a perfect and logical explanation. Some will buy a polyp/frag/colony over and over again hoping it will survive, not knowing that a simple change in current, lighting, placement, parameter/temp, water source etc will result in a complete turnaround.


2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?


Moral, no, unethical, YES. They are living animals, whether they have feelings or not, they retract upon touching them and I can't justify the repetitive demise of a polyp hoping that one day I'll get it right and they'll live. I recently read of someone who purchased a frag over and over again, many times until one finally lived, I totally disagree with that. I guess what I look at is the moral/ethical intent. If it were a controlled experiment, ( for example, a study to find out what causes zoa pox which kills so many polyps and colonies per year ) , I wouldn't consider that immoral or unethical. I know I will take some heat for saying that, so I'll explain that statement now. Everyone who reads this thread, has medically benefited greatly from a controlled study or series of testing/experimentation of plants, animals, mammals etc. Sacrifices were made for the betterment, longevity and advancement of some medicinal properties or life saving procedures. I can't compare that which saves human lives with the repetitive killing of healthy animals for ones personal viewing pleasure. My opinion alone and I force it upon no one.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.


I think this should be done with each purchase regardless. If I order or trade something from someone whom I'm not familiar with, I will ask these questions.

1. Is it wild caught or captive breed?

2. How long have you had it in your tank?

3. Was it recently frag?

4. If so, how long ago?

5. Have you had any issues with this polyp since owning it.

6. List all of your parameters including lighting source and height of placement.

7. Are you feeding it? If so, what, when and and how often.

These questions alone with greatly improve the survivability of a frag/colony being sold, traded or shipped.



4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?


Ethical obligation, yes. How can we ask/teach/expect the world and those none reefers to respect the ocean if we aren't inclined to do so ourselves with our own reef tanks.

Just my 2 cents.


Mucho Reef

Does anyone else have an opinion to share?

 

[IridescentLily]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13184460#post13184460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
I want to pose a series of questions for the sole purpose of debate and discussion. We can all agree to disagree and still be civil and respectful. That said, I want to hear what each of you have to say on the topic in question.


As everyone can clearly see, the desire to keep zoanthids and palythoas has grown exponentially over the past 2 or 3 years. The quest to have this polyp or that polyp is all the rage now and it has brought polyp keeping to the forefront I think as something to be desired. As with any coral purchase, knowledge of the coral's environmental requirements are equally as important as the quest to own them. Also, it's an unavoidable fact that all polyps from multiple regions around the globe will not fair well in every tank. The notion that polyps are very hardy and almost indestructible is a myth and simply put, not true. Polyps can, do and will succumb even in what we consider optimal conditions, why? The challenge is trying to accommodate the needs of those polyps which come from varying regions, shallow water vs deeper water, low nutrient vs high nutrient area, chaotic high flow vs low flow areas, near run offs vs pristine areas of collection. Polyps with longer skirts/tentacles can tolerate higher flow/currents than shorter skirted polyps. So the challenge is there to find the right mixed within your system to keep a host of polyps from different regions happy.

Anyone who has kept polyps for any great length of time has loss a frag or colony here and there for absolutely no explainable reason. You've done everything correctly, all other polyps were doing well, yet your favorite frag or colony went downhill overnight and never came back. You may have even purchased that same variant over and over again and each time it was met with eventual mortality.

So here's my question.

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?
I would try it twice. But only if i was certain about my water parameters being great. I feel trying again is a good way to learn more about what DOES work, and to pass on to others about what might work. If I wasn't sure about my paramaters and wasn't sure about how to keep that particular species, or what is likes, then I'd not buy one again after two times of trying. At some point a human ego has to take back seat to mother nature. The zoas know what they're doing, we just need to accept at some point that WE are learning from THEM. :lol:


2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?
I'm not sure what is meant by continue to kill a polyp. Do you mean kill it because of something one is doing wrong husbandry-wise, or because of allelopathy or...? Sorry, I'm new so this is all new to me but I'm very interested.


3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.
ABSOLUTELY. Not to do so, in my opinion anyway, is not good. Not good for various reasons:
a. You're wasting money. Money is good, I like money. Why would we want to waste it unnecessarily by not planning a little bit before we buy polyps, or other corals.
b. It's egotistical lol. Again, I mean we as humans are good, but we're not that good. Yet. As soon as we humans can make the ocean do what we want (right), then we can have an equal battle of wills with a polyp. :rollface:



4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?
I think so, yes.


Hope to hear from everyone on this topic.
Thanks for asking our opinions.


Mucho Reef

 

[MUCHO REEF]

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?
I'm not sure what is meant by continue to kill a polyp. Do you mean kill it because of something one is doing wrong husbandry-wise, or because of allelopathy or...? Sorry, I'm new so this is all new to me but I'm very interested.

Yes to # 2 Lily.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I want to pose a series of questions for the sole purpose of debate and discussion. We can all agree to disagree and still be civil and respectful. That said, I want to hear what each of you have to say on the topic in question.


As everyone can clearly see, the desire to keep zoanthids and palythoas has grown exponentially over the past 2 or 3 years. The quest to have this polyp or that polyp is all the rage now and it has brought polyp keeping to the forefront I think as something to be desired. As with any coral purchase, knowledge of the coral's environmental requirements are equally as important as the quest to own them. Also, it's an unavoidable fact that all polyps from multiple regions around the globe will not fair well in every tank. The notion that polyps are very hardy and almost indestructible is a myth and simply put, not true. Polyps can, do and will succumb even in what we consider optimal conditions, why? The challenge is trying to accommodate the needs of those polyps which come from varying regions, shallow water vs deeper water, low nutrient vs high nutrient area, chaotic high flow vs low flow areas, near run offs vs pristine areas of collection. Polyps with longer skirts/tentacles can tolerate higher flow/currents than shorter skirted polyps. So the challenge is there to find the right mixed within your system to keep a host of polyps from different regions happy.

Anyone who has kept polyps for any great length of time has loss a frag or colony here and there for absolutely no explainable reason. You've done everything correctly, all other polyps were doing well, yet your favorite frag or colony went downhill overnight and never came back. You may have even purchased that same variant over and over again and each time it was met with eventual mortality.

So here's my question.

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

Hope to hear from everyone on this topic.


Mucho Reef

Please share your opinion. Just answered an email on this topic and I want to know how you feel. Thanks

 

[kichimark]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

This has happened to me and I will refuse to try it again. I do not like to waste my money on things that die.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

It is neither moral or ethical in my view. I think a lot of newbies do this alot and get frustrated when things go wrong. I am not saying they are not ethical or moral but only because new people think maybe it was them and will give it more attempts even though they are actually doing everything they could right.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

A reefer should definitely do this and I believe this comes with experience.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

I say both. I do not like to kill things so beautiful intentionally. Its another reason why I mostly buy aquacultured corals since it does not remove a coral from a wild population and they tend to be hardier in my experience. I also believe many people think zoanthids as a whole are the easier to keep and grow than weeds. This is simply not true with many types and as such we should all research and share our knowledge on this animals so we can learn from eachothers mistakes and successes.

 

[Scopus Tang]

I want to pose a series of questions for the sole purpose of debate and discussion. We can all agree to disagree and still be civil and respectful. That said, I want to hear what each of you have to say on the topic in question.


As everyone can clearly see, the desire to keep zoanthids and palythoas has grown exponentially over the past 2 or 3 years. The quest to have this polyp or that polyp is all the rage now and it has brought polyp keeping to the forefront I think as something to be desired. As with any coral purchase, knowledge of the coral's environmental requirements are equally as important as the quest to own them. Also, it's an unavoidable fact that all polyps from multiple regions around the globe will not fair well in every tank. The notion that polyps are very hardy and almost indestructible is a myth and simply put, not true. Polyps can, do and will succumb even in what we consider optimal conditions, why? The challenge is trying to accommodate the needs of those polyps which come from varying regions, shallow water vs deeper water, low nutrient vs high nutrient area, chaotic high flow vs low flow areas, near run offs vs pristine areas of collection. Polyps with longer skirts/tentacles can tolerate higher flow/currents than shorter skirted polyps. So the challenge is there to find the right mixed within your system to keep a host of polyps from different regions happy.

Anyone who has kept polyps for any great length of time has loss a frag or colony here and there for absolutely no explainable reason. You've done everything correctly, all other polyps were doing well, yet your favorite frag or colony went downhill overnight and never came back. You may have even purchased that same variant over and over again and each time it was met with eventual mortality.

So here's my question.

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

Not more than twice, if I can't get it too take off the second time, there is something it doesn't like in my system and trying it additional times is not going to help.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

IMO yes. If you only hope that something will survive and you have changed anything from the previous time when it did not survive, why would you do that to the coral? Research in my opinion is completely different - its being done for a reason. Simply hoping things got better is silly.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

This, in my opinion should be done each time you purchase before you aquire the coral.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

IMO yes. By establishing a reef tank, we've accepted the responsibility of caring for the organisms that we've placed in that tank. Are we going to be perfect at it? Absolutely not, we are human after all, and as such we make mistakes.

Hope to hear from everyone on this topic.

Hope that helps you Mooch


Mucho Reef

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Hey thanks guys, I agree with you both bigtime.

I think the same holds true for excessive, improper and premature fragging which leads to repeditive mortality. What are your thoughts?

Mucho Reef

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Is it morally or ethically responsible to buy a coral you know nothing about and don't know if it will survive in the first place?

Personally, morality and ethics don't enter into it. It's already a stupid move monetarily.

Jeff

 

[MikeandNicole]

I think the question depends on the situation. I have tried several different times with a few types of polyps. My first rasta flew off of its frag plug never to be seen again. I then ordered another frag and was sent 2 frags instead. One grew excellent only to melt overnight. The other grew really well (for rastas anyways), and then I made the mistake of having them fragged in half to have a back up colony and my half melted (I usually let my zoas grow out for a long time before I will frag them and give them so someone as a backup). So I ordered another frag which is doing amazing right now.

These were all aquacultured, came from other hobbyists or stores so ethically I did not feel bad about ripping them out of the ocean. Usually my limit is 3 tries but with this one I wanted one more shot (also the wifes favorite zoa so that played into it). Other corals I would have probably left alone.

Zoas I have a completly love hate relationship with. I love all the colors and patterns on them and the way they look in big colonies. I hate the fact of how fickle they are. I have grown single polyps out to 30+ polyps only to have them melt overnight for no reason I can see. I have had frags blow off their plugs only to be found weeks later and survive (completely bleached out) and then have a frag fall into the sand and that is enough to irritate and kill them.

 

[Jarred1]

This thread pertains to me!!!

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

I have purchase 4 or 5 frags of RPE and a frag of PPE all of them melted away on me and I never could figure out why because all my other corals were doing great including zoas. I don't think it is wrong because I got them all from someone else ie, they weren't from the wild.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

I kept having those frags melt away on me and finally upgraded my tank and for some reason I am now having success with RPE now. I always say if you don't succeed try again but try to figure out what is causing them to melt away so you can tell other reefers and they can learn from your mistakes.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

I have done this with no avail on those polyps, for me to keep RPE's I had to upgrade my tank and now they are doing great if only the astreana stars would leave them alone. They leave all the other polyps alone but like to bother the PE's for some reason.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

The way I see is that someone before me must have killed many corals to figure out what it takes to keep these creatures alive and thriving. Which leads me to believe that if we let each other know about our mistakes it will help us all in the long run with keeping these corals alive and growing to share with the rest of the community.