Ethics vs Mortality - A Discussion

[zachfishman]

#2: Not a problem is the frag is cultured. I think it's irresponsible to repeatedly purchase wild-harvested frags/colonies in this sense.

I don't regard corals any higher than flowers, trees, etc. We have moral and ethical obligations to the environment, but for the kind of organism a coral is, I don't think ethical treatment, humane treatment, etc. even applies.

 

[kichimark]

Hey thanks guys, I agree with you both bigtime.

I think the same holds true for excessive, improper and premature fragging which leads to repeditive mortality. What are your thoughts?

Mucho Reef

Personally I can not understand why someone would frag a 2-5 polyp frag. I mean needing money is one thing but to just do it is nuts. I let my colonies all grow and when I do frag it is because I want to have insurance (i.e. I lost my colony of UC to melting for unknown reasons and should have fragged a piece off when it got big so when the main colony died I could start over). I would also frag a LARGE colony if I want funds for more reef stuff. I see this as fun money since I also do not have to tell the miss haha.

Now I am actually going to frag a spacemonster colony soon only because it grows so darn fast and went from one polyp to ~30ish in almost 4 months and is going to outcompete some local polyps. I also want some insurance as mentioned above. I also need to do that to a nightmare colony (got about 23) but they look so good together. Once I frag a good portion off I will let the main colony grow untouched.

Another thing I find funny about people that frag prematurely is if they hold off they can in the long run have more polyps to sell haha. I mean if I have one polyp then went to 2 then grew to 4 and fragged a 2 polyp off, I am now stuck with 2 polyps. Now if I have the 4 then let it grow to 8 then 16 you get where I am going. Now any experienced reefer knows it does not really go that way but you will still understand the more you have the better the recruitment.

I also believe if a person frags they should A) Let the polyp heal and even grow on the frag before they sell, B) If possible have more than ONE polyp, C) Have some rock or substrate with the polyp when they cut and place that on a frag plug.

I totally forgot where I was going with all this haha.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

#2: Not a problem is the frag is cultured. I think it's irresponsible to repeatedly purchase wild-harvested frags/colonies in this sense.

I don't regard corals any higher than flowers, trees, etc. We have moral and ethical obligations to the environment, but for the kind of organism a coral is, I don't think ethical treatment, humane treatment, etc. even applies.

Hmmmmm, I guess I treat them like I would any other animal, but that's me.

Mucho

 

[mallorieGgator]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system? If I purchased a polyp or colony and it died in my system first off I would be very upset because I take these things too personally. I would look around on line to see if anyone else has had the same experience, if not, I would try another polyp if I really liked it thinking that maybe the polyp was already on the downfall. If it didn't live again I would no longer buy the polyp.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?I think that the polyp being an animal, it is just as cruel to kill many knowing you can't keep them as it would be to kill a reptile or amphibian (won't uses cats and dogs as an example because hopefully people can keep them.lol)

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.Ideally, yes, one should research before buying but realistically that doesn't happen. I know if I go into world wide corals (which is VERY dangerous for the hubby's wallet lol!) I don't go in with the idea of "oh I want a deep water zoa with such and such requirements". I usually buy on the knowledge that zoas do well in my system and I assume most will be ok.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals? I would say it is an obligation to provide the correct environment in the tank for the zoas. In reality we can't provide for every coral we get and we will lose some but to keep buying the same zoa knowing it doesn't thrive well in your tank or any other person's tank is a little moraly wrong IMO.

 

[mallorieGgator]

#2: Not a problem is the frag is cultured. I think it's irresponsible to repeatedly purchase wild-harvested frags/colonies in this sense.

I don't regard corals any higher than flowers, trees, etc. We have moral and ethical obligations to the environment, but for the kind of organism a coral is, I don't think ethical treatment, humane treatment, etc. even applies.

I would disagree with you here on regarding corals at the same level as a plant. A coral is an animal and although it may not be as complex as a cat or dog, it still has a nervous system and it also reproduces and eats just like all animals (also plants so I get where you're coming from on seeing them in the same light as a plant). However, it's this state of mind that has also got people to think of "lesser organisms" as disposable. I've seen it in the reptile world where people can get away with animal cruelty because most regard reptiles as "lesser animals".
I do agree on the obligation to the environment however.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[XSharkboyX]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

No, absolutely not. A no brianer for me...


2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

No, absolutely not. One needs to find out why it is continually perishing...

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

Yes, research is the key to great success.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

I would say yes. Corals are animals. Just because you own something, does not give you the right to abuse it. Period.
Pets are pets. If everytime you kicked a dog in a certain spot, a puppy popped out, however if you were off mark by 1 inch you would kill the dog, imagine how many people would go around kicking their dogs in hopes to get a puppy... However, also imagine how many dogs would be killed because people didnt know what they were doing...
A bit farfetched, however its the same concept IMO...

 

[kichimark]

I would disagree with you here on regarding corals at the same level as a plant. A coral is an animal and although it may not be as complex as a cat or dog, it still has a nervous system and it also reproduces and eats just like all animals (also plants so I get where you're coming from on seeing them in the same light as a plant). However, it's this state of mind that has also got people to think of "lesser organisms" as disposable. I've seen it in the reptile world where people can get away with animal cruelty because most regard reptiles as "lesser animals".
I do agree on the obligation to the environment however.
Just my 2 cents.

I have seen that too with reptiles. I have noticed people tend to like/identify more with mammals and when you go farther down to reptiles/amphibians/fish the less it becomes. I treat anything with a nervous the best I can. If it is a pest such as a sea spider/aiptasia/ zoanthid eating nudibranch...well I eradicate the best I can :blown:

 

[650-IS350]

it is a pest such as a sea spider/aiptasia/ zoanthid eating nudibranch...well I eradicate the best I can hahahahhahaha " I'm a TERMINATOR " I'll be BACK !!!!

 

[XSharkboyX]

I treat anything with a nervous the best I can. If it is a pest such as a sea spider/aiptasia/ zoanthid eating nudibranch...well I eradicate the best I can :blown:

True, I mean you can compare them to mosquitos, flies, flees, ticks, and mites on mammals... There are always going to be pests, and pest control is a must in order to keep them in check...

 

[mallorieGgator]

I think killing pests is cruel...



lol, jk.

 

[XSharkboyX]

I think killing pests is cruel...



lol, jk.

I'll harvest all of mine from now on and send them your way...

 

[mallorieGgator]

Awesome!

 

[returnofsid]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

1. Not "over and over." If it perished, for a reason I could figure out AND correct, then I'd consider another purchase, only after correcting the original issue.

2. It is both morally and ethically wrong, to continue to kill a living critter, without a good reason, IMO.

3. I always try to research coral's needs, that I'm unfamiliar with, or that have died in my tank. Sometimes, that research is limited to asking the source how it did in their tank, their lighting, flow, where was it in their tank, tank inhabitants....etc.

4. Yes, it is our moral and ethical obligation. Even if this is an aqua-cultured coral, it's still a living entity.

No, I'm not against the killing of animals. I eat meat, I hunt, I kill pests found in my tank, unless it's something I feel safe putting in a different tank, fuge, etc. However, I do believe that I should have a legitimate reason, for killing animals. Continuing to kill a coral, over and over, just because I'm ignorant to that coral's needs and am unwilling to educate myself, or try to meet that coral's needs, is immoral and unethical.

 

[XSharkboyX]

No, I'm not against the killing of animals. I eat meat, I hunt, I kill pests found in my tank, unless it's something I feel safe putting in a different tank, fuge, etc. However, I do believe that I should have a legitimate reason, for killing animals. Continuing to kill a coral, over and over, just because I'm ignorant to that coral's needs and am unwilling to educate myself, or try to meet that coral's needs, is immoral and unethical.

I agree 100% with you on that.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

1. Not "over and over." If it perished, for a reason I could figure out AND correct, then I'd consider another purchase, only after correcting the original issue.

2. It is both morally and ethically wrong, to continue to kill a living critter, without a good reason, IMO.

3. I always try to research coral's needs, that I'm unfamiliar with, or that have died in my tank. Sometimes, that research is limited to asking the source how it did in their tank, their lighting, flow, where was it in their tank, tank inhabitants....etc.

4. Yes, it is our moral and ethical obligation. Even if this is an aqua-cultured coral, it's still a living entity.

No, I'm not against the killing of animals. I eat meat, I hunt, I kill pests found in my tank, unless it's something I feel safe putting in a different tank, fuge, etc. However, I do believe that I should have a legitimate reason, for killing animals. Continuing to kill a coral, over and over, just because I'm ignorant to that coral's needs and am unwilling to educate myself, or try to meet that coral's needs, is immoral and unethical.

Wow, beginning to end, what an awesome reply. 2 thumbs up. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[SIR PATRICK]

1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

Yes I would, with some adjustments or different placement to the system. I have done so many times, and learned a little each time. I am keeping many polyps today that I could not in the past.

2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

In the name of education, I would have to say yes. This is a hobby that we learn alot from our, and others mistakes. Unfortunate? Yes, moral or ethically wrong? No. This hobby would have never gotten off the ground if it were otherwise.

3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

Reefers should always research anything they intend to own, to the best of their ability....but sometimes even that isnt enough. One day it might be, but that day is not now.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

Absolutely. And if you fail, fail, fail, and then figure it out and succeed- share this knowledge! And not just the succeeding knowlege, but the failing knowledge you might have gained also. This is how the hobby has gotten to where its at, knowledge wise, currently.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

I have collected soooo many polyps in the past.....and had them go south for many different reasons- many still unexplained, and others that have been figured out.

If I were to give up on every type I lost- I would likely not have a polyp in my tank to this day. The thought has crossed my mind.....But even to this day- I am a polyp head, and will continue to keep these corals.

Does this make my methods unethical? Or immoral?

Dont get me wrong, I find absolutely no offence to any part of this thread, or anyones veiws- just asking, for discussion sake.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

If you were out there buying polyps after polyp, frag after frag, colony after colony every week or as soon as something dies, without making a remote attempt to find a resolution, I'd say yes, what you're doing is unethical. But it doesn't appear that is what you're doing my friend. I know you well enough from reading your post, that you are not the kind of person to allow zoas and palys to continually be used as test dummies thus perishing week to week.

Mucho Reef

 

[KafudaFish]

The people who take the time to answer these questions are probably going to be the ones who answer along the same lines of thinking.


1. If you purchased a specific polyp, frag or colony and it failed to survive in your system, should you buy the same polyp, frag or colony over and over again if it perishes each and every time you place it in your system?

I think there is a limit one should impose. I guess the first should be why did they perish? Was it human error such as dropping a PH on them or bad glue? Did they just melt? If they melt away this is a little different than making a mistake. I would be more likely to try again here. If they just melt I would try, and then figure out the whys and then I would try again. If they still melt then no I would not buy again.



If they just melt it is my responsibility to figure out why and to correct the issuse(s). If I don't take the time to figure out the why what is the point of trying again.

Physical habitats shape biological communities.


2. Is it moral or ethically correct to continue to kill the same polyp, frag or colony hoping that one of them will eventually live?

No. We should realize that not all zoas come from the same environment and that no matter what will not do well. Again why? Bad shippers, stress, the tank, etc?


3. Or, should the reefer search/inquire of this specific polyps needs and challenges prior to continually purchasing and killing it repeatedly. In short, trying to figure out what it will take to keep it alive, instead of killing the polyp over and over again hoping it will somehow survive.

Yes see #2. This can and should be a learning hobby.

4. Is it our moral and ethical obligation to do this for the sake and vitality of the corals?

Yes I believe there is a certain obligation we take on when we care for another living species be it dog or polyp.


Hope to hear from everyone on this topic.