False Percs - laid eggs 9/18 and not again...

[jbrinker]

I have read with great interest all the clownfish breeding threads on this forum, especially since my ~2y old pair of false-perc clowns laid eggs on 9/18. I tried (unsucessfully) to save the eggs, but thing I probably killed them in the process.

My main question is, they have not laid again. What can I do to help them lay again?

Here's the particulars:

55Gal "reef" with ~100lbs live rock, lots of inverts and a few low light corals/polyps. On-tank skimmer, no sump, NO lighting (6500/actinic).

Temp was 72F, salinity 1.020. Use Instant Ocean salt, and few water changes. Top up and change water from RO at wal-mart.

I feed them almost exclusively Thera+A small pellets (they love it).

Only thing different that happened pre-spawn was that the tank had been quite ignored for a few weeks. Some green algae had developed on the glass, and I had been pretty lax about the lighting schedule (not on very much).

Just prior to spawn (couple days) I cleaned the tank real well, and changed about 10% of the water. I left the lights off that first afternoon and night, then starting the next day went back onto a normal actinic on at 7am, brights on from 5-9pm, actinic till bedtime (10) then all off. The next day they spawned. I dont know that it had anything to do with it.

I have tried to keep conditions the same since that time - same lighting schedule every day, same water, etc. I even added a couple tiles to the tank (they spawned on a plastic pipe the first time).

One other thing, they spawned almost exactly on the full moon...

How often should they spawn? She looks a bit "fat", but I really can't tell. They certainly dance around each other a LOT. How can I help them do it again?

I have started my rotifer and nano cultures this time, so I hope to be fully prepared if they do it again.

Jeff

 

[tcmfish]

Get a timer for that light. Set it for roughly 14h.

Feed them a lot. Keeping feeding them the pellets, and you may want to go to the grocery store or seafood mart and get some fresh shrimp then freeze it and use a cheese grater to shave it into smaller chunks, and also feed this.

Feed them to saturation (til they stop eating) maybe 3-4 times a day or as much as you can.

Also if you get the temp of the tank up to maybe 80 or a little higher (however high the other inhabitants can handle), this will speed up their metabolism allowing them to eat more.

And if they spawned on a plastic pipe, make sure you replace that pipe and then when they spawn again have a pipe to replace the one the eggs are on.

Changing things will cause them to stop spawning.

 

[jbrinker]

Thanks for the reply.

After the first spawn, after I lost the eggs (so about 10 days after they actually spawned) I decided that I should raise the temp. Over the course of 2 days I raised it to ~80-81F. About a week later I added the two kitchen tiles (they seem to ignore them for the most part).

I did remove the pipe with the eggs and replace it with an identical one, so I do have two to "swap out".

I'm wondering if adding the tiles has "spooked" them.

FYI, I'm almost certain I killed the eggs. I moved them on day 7 (they had eyes) and they didnt hatch. So I moved them back. They seemed fine at that point. On day 8 I moved them again, and I think I over bubbled them, on the morning of day 9 the few that were left in the tank (layed on the glass) were hatched, and the pipe ones that I transferred never did...

Next time I think I will try a larvae catcher. If I can get them to have a next time!

I will try the shrimp thing. I have tried to get them to eat shrimp before with no luck. Same with blood worms. They used to like cyclopeze, but that makes such a mess!

Jeff

 

[tcmfish]

Move the eggs not the larvae. The eggs are much stronger. Just try and be consistent. Just be patient and when they start spawning again move the eggs and just a light bubble over them (the whole nest). I would use an airstone to get finer bubbles. And try not to move them so much. You can do it.

 

[NirvanaFan]

make sure you get raw seafoodfrom the grocery store. My clowns won't eat cooked seafood. They get tuna, scallops, clam, squid, and shrimp every other day. Variety in feeding will help them.

 

[jbrinker]

Thanks again for the replies. So far, no new eggs. Here's what I have done so far:

- Gently raise temp of the brood tank to 80F
- Set a light cycle as follows: Actinics on at 7am, whites on at 6pm, off at 9:30pm, actinics off at 10pm.
- Started "saturation feeding" 2-3 times a day. Momma has gotten "fat" and both are eating well. The tank is getting a nice hair algae bloom as a result of the light+food though. Need to get some clean up critters.
- Started a phyto culture, now have about 2 gallons of this stuff brewing downstairs. Probably have at least 6 gallons in a week.
- Getting ready to start rotifers (from eggs). I kinda wanted to wait until I see if they spawn again...

Now, it's coming up on the full moon again. They have no way to really tell, but ya never know. It will be a month on the 18th...

Any more advice? I think I really am ready this time... But they are not!

Jeff

 

[rkelman]

I think you are on the right track. Do you have moonlights? Some people say it helps. I didn't feed a great amount to get mine to spawn. Don't create an unhealthy environment by overfeeding.

 

[tcmfish]

rkelman- How often did you feed your clowns?

But yeah good point don't feed too much if the filtration can't keep up. Bad water quality will effect things more worse than more feedings will help.

 

[Zooid]

This may sound strange, but try some frozen mysis with some selcon. Mine started spawning after feeding this and they spawn every 2 weeks.

 

[rkelman]

I feed them once a day tcmfish. Always have. I feed a variety as well. I was feeding formula 1, formula 2, Brine shrimp, Mysis etc. Now I'm feeding a home made food that I make myself. Its alot cheaper and I think its good for them. I mix in the others from time to time.

I read somewhere that someone thought feeding brine shrimp (live I think) induced spawning. I think just feed them well and a variety.

 

[tcmfish]

That's interesting. Do they still spawn frequently? But just goes to show you a good environment helps with anything too.

I wouldn't rely on brine shrimp, not the most nutritional food you could feed.

Like you said the key is just a good varied diet.

 

[rkelman]

Yes mine spawn every 14 days. Lately every 13 days.

No I wouldn't feed exclusively brine shrimp for sure.

 

[cl2ysta1]

next time DO NOT REMOVE THE EGGS!!!! let them lay at least three batches before you start trying to raise them. This will get them in a routine. all of the other info is definitely good you are recieving.


how are your rotifer cultures going?

 

[Atticus]

Jeff,

If you want to get them to spawn again, STOP CHANGING THINGS!!!

Many of the steps you have taken are the reason they have paused. Temp change was a great idea, but it really should have been done over a months time. Ideal temp if fish only is about 82 degrees. This does increase fish metabolism, but the main reason is quicker egg development and increased parental immunity/health.

Light cycle again can help a reluctant pair to spawn, but obviously your clowns were happy. The magic number in my tanks used to be 13.5 hours of light per day. You are way over that right now. The true key is to have the light cycle stable. On and off at the same time everyday. Set the time with daylight savings time in mind so you never have to change the timers.

Food is easily based on value versus energy used to consume it. You can also tailor a diet to change the way your fish produces eggs and how viable the fry will be. A varied diet is always best. Rkelman gave you great advice. An example of a tailored diet and some scarry advice above is the addition of table shrimp. Table shrimp is a good food if your clown's eggs are not adhering (glued) well to the substrate (tile or in your case pipe). Too much shrimp can cause egg binding and kill your female.

As for a feeding schedule again I give a knod to Rkleman. ONE feeding to saturation a day is PLENTY!!! I would suggest a couple more feedings throughout the day, but keep them light and use those feedings as tailored feedings. Want more color in your eggs, feed cyclop-eeze. Fry getting stuck in the egg casing or dying in the egg, feed shredded beef heart.

Feeding live brine, not a bad idea. I however suggest live baby brine or rotifers. These feedings replicate a plankton bloom. Some believe this triggers the female to believe there is plenty of food available for her to produce young. I am not a firm believer in this theory, but the fish enjoy it. Plankton blooms can also be simulated using cyclop-eeze (which has more nutritional/tailored value).

 

[Atticus]

As for removing the eggs. STOP IT!!!

Let the pair have a few nests. Take this opportunity to refine your rotifer husbandry (clownfish are easy compared to their food...). You can also try catching the fry by flashlight the night of the hatch. That way you do not disturb the pair and you still get to try to raise a few fry. I never took a tile from a pair until I had enough fry in growout to feel that I could afford to lose a nest.

 

[rkelman]

I hadn't even thought about the removing of the eggs. I agree leave them for a few times. Even mine after a few spawns were very upset when I removed the eggs which is possibly why they stopped spawning for a period. Now they don't get upset at all because they are used to it. They don't even bite me which is a bonus. Also I replace the tile with one exactly the same immediately. (actually before the other one leaves the tank there is another in place)

 

[jbrinker]

Thanks everyone! This is all great advice - I wish I had found this forum before I attempted the first batch! I was just doing what I had read - and outside of this forum everyone said "pull the tile/rock/etc".

When I did that, I did notice that mom and dad got very upset. Sad even. They seemed to get over it after a few days, but like I said - they still have not laid again.

I have tried to stabalize things, like I said before things were actually pretty UNstable just before they mated the first time. I had been ignoring the tank, it had an algae bloom (on the glass only), and I had been leaving the lights mostly off. (only on in the AM to feed for about a half hour, and in the evening for a few hours) Maybe they like it better with a much shorter photoperiod?

I had been feeding just a pinch in the AM and again at about dinner time. Enough that they each got a good helping (10 pellets or so) and if they didnt get much (one being a pig and the other loosing out), I didnt worry about it. They seemed healthy and happy.

For all intents the tank is a pretty close to a FOLR right now. I have lots of life on my LR (its over 10 years old) and some mushrooms and other low-light inverts. Everything seems fine at 80F, except I now have hair algae problems due to the extra feed, and extra light. I dont have a good skimmer -just a hang on tank one - a new tank is in the works and was about to be purchased (90 reef-ready, sump in basement) until this spawning started. Now Im not sure I want to move them right now.

My algae culture is kicking butt - I have a whole bunch of "pretzel jugs" from the warehouse club that I have been using. Each holds about 1.5 gallons, I now have 3 gallons of full-strength phyto that I will split into 6+ tonight. I am starting the rotifers tonight, and expect to have a metric ton of them within a week or two at most. I think I have finally got a handle on the culture thing - the book from FL Aqua farms helped, as well as reading here. Keeping everything STERILE clean I think has also helped.

Now, if I can just get the honeymooners to lay again.

Based on the above suggestions, I guess I will quit messing with stuff. I put the original pipe back (removed the surrogate) since the original had coraline all over it, they might like that better. I will reduce the photo period to about 12 hours. I will stop the mega feeding, and instead go with once a day + snack at night. I will get some varied food items, to include mysis or cyclopeze. I will also get some new reef janitors so I can keep the tank cleaner.

I want to STOP changing stuff. If the reason they are not laying is because I "stole" the nest, that I can understand. Then I just need to get a plan, and stick to it for a while. I have already decided to use a larvae catcher next time, even if I loose a bunch.

 

[Atticus]

Your light period really needs to be about 13.5 hours of light the rest dark. This simulates their summer light cycle in nature.

The key is really stability and a quality diet. Pellets are ok, but not ideal. Tank stability means not a pebble in the tank should be moved and even the furniture outside the tank should not be moved. To combat this last part I used to cover the front of my broodstock tanks with a tarp. It had to be boring for the clowns to look at, but it made them feel safe enough to spawn and allowed me to use the rest of the room they were in for my other projects without disturbing them.

 

[jbrinker]

You said:

"To combat this last part I used to cover the front of my broodstock tanks with a tarp. It had to be boring for the clowns to look at, but it made them feel safe enough to spawn and allowed me to use the rest of the room they were in for my other projects without disturbing them."

Now.. this may make sense... Remember what I said? The tank - particularly the end that they hang out in, was covered in algae. The glass was for the most part opaque. Actually it wasn't THAT bad, but you couldn't easily see through it. Like I said, I was being lazy and had a lot of other things going on for about a month. The tank is in our family room.

So.. I think I have it. I don't think its the lights (although I'm sure simulating nature would be good), it might be that they don't feel safe.

I think I will cover that end of the tank with green paper, and see what happens. (maybe even let the algae grow back).

 

[Atticus]

I am not guessing on the light cycle. It is something we have used for years in more than just clownfish. As for the algae yes, it would perform the same as a tarp. I also let my brrodstock tanks grow algae all over the place. It never hurt anything and by not cleaning you are decreeasing your chances of disturbing them.