finally had enough

TTM is the method I have opted for. It doesn't have to be too expensive and only lasts 13 days. I got two totes from Wally world and a couple of packages of disposable airstones with an air pump that has two outlets, several pieces of pvc for each tote and two heaters and two thermometers. I transfer the fish between the two totes every three days and the last transfer is into the QT and there they wait for the rest of the 72 days it takes for the parasites to starve in the DT. I really am against letting the fish "get over" their infestation in the DT...it's like telling my cat that a few fleas are ok...really. They won't bother you that much. It's not responsible. These fish, well cared for, should live for over a decade in our tanks and sometimes two decades...they can't do that with ICH.
 
I would suspect you may not be at the correct dose. If your at the correct dose then the ich can't survive.

i'm confused, so what does the 16 drops per gallon mean?

isn't that the directions?

or is that the reccommended per day dosing to bring it up to 0.5?

"Remove all invertebrates. Turn off UV sterilizer; remove chemical filtration. If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Do not redose without testing (MultiTest: Copper™). Do not use in conjunction with any other medication. If tank has ever been treated with an ionic copper (e.g. copper chloride, sulfate or citrate), test copper level after initial dosing. Although most fish tolerate Cupramine™ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper. Remove with carbon or CupriSorb™."
 
My experience: My tank had ICK, but it only manifested as an occasional spot here and there. That was until I added a new fish at which point I a lost a couple fish in a few days. I destroyed my aquascaping getting the survivors out and into a quarantine tank. Then I treated with the recommended dosage of 0.5 mg/L of Cupramine for 14 days getting up to that level per directions. My hamlet was too far gone and died two days later. I lost two other fish because I did not know that Prime toxified Cupramine.

The ICK came back a week after treatment had been completed in the quarantine, and after asking for help here, I treated the fish AGAIN for 30 days at 0.35 mg/L. Genius here then waited 10 weeks and put the fish back in the display tank. The white spots appeared on my fish within a week.

Another destroyed aquascape later, my fish were in quarantine again being treated for 30 days at 0.35 mg/L. My fish did not have a recurrence again after this. My display tank was fallow for around 14 weeks (because life got in the way... I was only planning on waiting 12 weeks) and is now ICK free. It is am amazing feeling being able to look at my fish and not fear for a white spot to appear...

Good luck and don't try to shortchange the 12 week fallow period in your display tank!!! What have I learned from this? Quarantine... Quarantine... and honestly, if I were ever to consider adding a new fish I would preemptively treat with Cupramine in QT or only add from LL DA...

Thanks yea I will be quarantining every single new addition!
 
TTM is the method I have opted for. It doesn't have to be too expensive and only lasts 13 days. I got two totes from Wally world and a couple of packages of disposable airstones with an air pump that has two outlets, several pieces of pvc for each tote and two heaters and two thermometers. I transfer the fish between the two totes every three days and the last transfer is into the QT and there they wait for the rest of the 72 days it takes for the parasites to starve in the DT. I really am against letting the fish "get over" their infestation in the DT...it's like telling my cat that a few fleas are ok...really. They won't bother you that much. It's not responsible. These fish, well cared for, should live for over a decade in our tanks and sometimes two decades...they can't do that with ICH.


Agreed its stressful on me and more-so them!!

I will not be putting them back with ANY ich in the DT i am waiting the entire time.

i'm just afraid the QT is not functioning as it is supposed to...

given i do not have the proper copper test kit as this has happened between paychecks and i cant afford to buy anything at all til thursday 3 more days.

what do i do?

If I am not dosing correctly that means I am just giving the ICH a faster attack in the smaller tank!

anyone can help me with the math in regards to how many drops in a 10 gallon to get it to 0.5mg/l?
 
I know most of you will say this is a no-no, But hey I got to share my experiences with ich. 10 years ago I started my first SW. It was a 29g with a HOB. I had 2 damsels I started with. One of my Damsels ended up with ick. I went out and purchased a QT tank for him and started the medication. He only survived that night. I took down the QT and never put it back up. My next fishes I purchased after were 2 percs and 1 neon goby. I never allowed the tank the 72 days or did anything with my DT. What happened, both clowns ended up with ICK. I didn’t want to do the whole QT thing again, since it didn’t work the first time around. So I allowed them to stay in my DT and let them battle ick themselves. Since then I have always done that .I Just kept up with my daily feedings and water changes. Those two percs would live on for 7 years and neon 8 years.
 
There are few things I think need to be stated:

1. C. irritans does not have a magic 'self destruct' switch at X concentration of copper, or X specific gravity. The copper level recommended by Seachem when dosing cupramine is considered the best balance between an effective level that is still safe for you fish. They recommend maintaining 0.5 mg/L, but that does not mean at 0.49 mg/L all the parasites are going to be hunky dory. Copper, like any medication, is about trying to raise the levels high enough long enough to kill all the parasites without killing the animal you're treating, and there will always be statistical variability within a range for that.

2. Without a copper test, you should not - I repeat - should NOT be dosing a copper product. At best, the levels will be too low and you're stressing your animals out for no reason. At worst, you'll overdose and kill them.

3. Of all the ways of treating parasites, copper is without question the most stressful for the fish because Copper is a potent metabolic poison to marine animals. The tank transfer method is probably the least, or second least stressful (chloroquine might be the best, but I have no idea how toxic it is to fish). What's more stressful on a human body - running outside naked in the winter from your house to your neighbours house once every three days, or consuming low doses or arsenic for three weeks? Fish have spent millions of years evolving efficient fight/flight mechanisms that quickly ramp up adrenaline, then mop it up when the danger has passed. They have not spent millions of years figuring out how to metabolically cope with 'therapeutic' levels of copper. Whether you can see it or not, your fish are experiencing organ damage to some degree, which they will not experience during the tank transfer method. Copper, done right (i.e. with regular testing of copper levels) is a perfectly valid treatment and can be situationally appropriate it's really hard on your fish.

4. If you're fighting ich, you need to be isolating your QT tank from you display completely. Stop doing water changes with display tank water. That's like trying to bail out a boat by displacing the water with sand.

5. You might be seeing more spots now because the protozoans they were infested with in the display are simply maturing. You might also not be maintaining high enough levels of copper and introduced more infective theronts from the display during a water change. Copper is only effective on one or two stages of ich's life cycle, once it's burrowed in to the fish, there's not much that can touch it.
 
There are few things I think need to be stated:

1. C. irritans does not have a magic 'self destruct' switch at X concentration of copper, or X specific gravity. The copper level recommended by Seachem when dosing cupramine is considered the best balance between an effective level that is still safe for you fish. They recommend maintaining 0.5 mg/L, but that does not mean at 0.49 mg/L all the parasites are going to be hunky dory. Copper, like any medication, is about trying to raise the levels high enough long enough to kill all the parasites without killing the animal you're treating, and there will always be statistical variability within a range for that.

2. Without a copper test, you should not - I repeat - should NOT be dosing a copper product. At best, the levels will be too low and you're stressing your animals out for no reason. At worst, you'll overdose and kill them.

3. Of all the ways of treating parasites, copper is without question the most stressful for the fish because Copper is a potent metabolic poison to marine animals. The tank transfer method is probably the least, or second least stressful (chloroquine might be the best, but I have no idea how toxic it is to fish). What's more stressful on a human body - running outside naked in the winter from your house to your neighbours house once every three days, or consuming low doses or arsenic for three weeks? Fish have spent millions of years evolving efficient fight/flight mechanisms that quickly ramp up adrenaline, then mop it up when the danger has passed. They have not spent millions of years figuring out how to metabolically cope with 'therapeutic' levels of copper. Whether you can see it or not, your fish are experiencing organ damage to some degree, which they will not experience during the tank transfer method. Copper, done right (i.e. with regular testing of copper levels) is a perfectly valid treatment and can be situationally appropriate it's really hard on your fish.

4. If you're fighting ich, you need to be isolating your QT tank from you display completely. Stop doing water changes with display tank water. That's like trying to bail out a boat by displacing the water with sand.

5. You might be seeing more spots now because the protozoans they were infested with in the display are simply maturing. You might also not be maintaining high enough levels of copper and introduced more infective theronts from the display during a water change. Copper is only effective on one or two stages of ich's life cycle, once it's burrowed in to the fish, there's not much that can touch it.


Thanks for that! I appreciate the in depth input.

I may have acted too quickly with the QT but I felt not doing any action was going to cause more of a breakout of the ich.

Yes I am definitely not overdosing if the ich is still cycling which sucks. and I cant get a new test kit til Thursday. I though i had enough time to do the basic dosing of the 16 drops per 10 gallons but i am learning that is under dosing.

I only used the DT water for the first fill up but haven't used that water ever since, it was already established that was a bad idea LOL

I think the outbreak could be the maturing of the ich, I cant see how the ich could grow drop off cyst and release in two days +/-. unless this is some evil evolved ich!

Thanks!
 
i'm confused, so what does the 16 drops per gallon mean?

isn't that the directions?

or is that the reccommended per day dosing to bring it up to 0.5?

"Remove all invertebrates. Turn off UV sterilizer; remove chemical filtration. If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Do not redose without testing (MultiTest: Copperâ„¢). Do not use in conjunction with any other medication. If tank has ever been treated with an ionic copper (e.g. copper chloride, sulfate or citrate), test copper level after initial dosing. Although most fish tolerate Cupramineâ„¢ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper. Remove with carbon or CupriSorbâ„¢."

I am just guessing here since a test is a couple days out. If the copper levels are where they are suppose to be the ich cannot survive. I read a thread a day or so ago where someone was following the directions but ended up adding more than the directions stated, according to his test kit. He was very frustrated. If you are doing water changes with your DT water stop that, potentially just infecting the QT again.

Once you get your test kit then you will know for sure what your levels are.
 
These fish, well cared for, should live for over a decade in our tanks and sometimes two decades..

And sometimes three :smokin:
 
i'm confused, so what does the 16 drops per gallon mean?

isn't that the directions?

or is that the reccommended per day dosing to bring it up to 0.5?

"Remove all invertebrates. Turn off UV sterilizer; remove chemical filtration. If the bottle has a dropper cap, use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat. On non-dropper caps, each inner ring is 1 mL. In freshwater use half dose. Final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L (0.25 mg/L in freshwater). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Do not redose without testing (MultiTest: Copperâ„¢). Do not use in conjunction with any other medication. If tank has ever been treated with an ionic copper (e.g. copper chloride, sulfate or citrate), test copper level after initial dosing. Although most fish tolerate Cupramineâ„¢ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper. Remove with carbon or CupriSorbâ„¢."

Read the directions again carefully - it states 20 drops per 10.5 gallons, not 16 drops per gallon.

Do you have anything in your QT except water, fish, a heater and a circulation pump/air stone? If you've live rock and/or sand, it will absorb copper medication, reducing its effective concentration in the water.

If you actually added 16 drops of Cupramine per gallon, and your QT has rock/sand in it, you may have dodged a bullet, since 16 drops per gallon would be a very large overdose.

Keep in mind that an inexpensive copper test kit like the API test can be had for $5.99 from Drs Foster and Smith. It'll be a bit more in a retail store, but certainly not more than $10 at an "aquarium specialty" Petco, or at a Manhattan LFS.
 
Read the directions again carefully - it states 20 drops per 10.5 gallons, not 16 drops per gallon.

Do you have anything in your QT except water, fish, a heater and a circulation pump/air stone? If you've live rock and/or sand, it will absorb copper medication, reducing its effective concentration in the water.

If you actually added 16 drops of Cupramine per gallon, and your QT has rock/sand in it, you may have dodged a bullet, since 16 drops per gallon would be a very large overdose.

Keep in mind that an inexpensive copper test kit like the API test can be had for $5.99 from Drs Foster and Smith. It'll be a bit more in a retail store, but certainly not more than $10 at an "aquarium specialty" Petco, or at a Manhattan LFS.

Nope just pvc piping of different sizes, a heater, water, fish and a hob filter with a filter sock stuffed to capture debris. no carbon or anything.

thats weird cause the bottle i have at home says 16 drops per 10.5 gallons.

the seachem site says 20 per 10.5 now....

I meant to say per every 10 gallons not every gallon (it was a typo)
 
Didn't notice but if you don't have one get a copper test kit and keep the level at .5

The fallow tank for at least 6, 8 is better, weeks is VERY important.
 
Didn't notice but if you don't have one get a copper test kit and keep the level at .5

The fallow tank for at least 6, 8 is better, weeks is VERY important.

YEs Definitely going to do the 72 days.

Good News Everyone =P

I get home and my yellow tang is SPOTLESS!!

I did a 50% water change and added 10 drops. (10 gallon qt tank til Thursday)

I siphoned the bottom glass spotless!!!

Hopefully I got whatever Ich that were chillin on the tank floor.

and now we play the waiting game.

I am hoping they stay strong til thursday where I can re-up on Nori Weed for the Tang and the copper test kit.

:fish1:
 
Keep in mind that an inexpensive copper test kit like the API test can be had for $5.99 from Drs Foster and Smith. It'll be a bit more in a retail store, but certainly not more than $10 at an "aquarium specialty" Petco, or at a Manhattan LFS.
You cant use an API test kit for Cupramine... It wont read correctly as this is not chelated copper. You need to get a Seachem or Salifert test kit.
 
So copper is now set at 0.5

I bought the seachem kit.

I wasnt too far off with my drop calculations, i was at 0.7ish

but I am happy to know I have the QT 100% under control

however I caved, I figured if I am waiting 72 days i might as well get the fish I want now.

I bought 4 more baby green chromis and a new yellow tang. i couldn't bare not seeing a yellow tang anymore and my first green chromis looked lonely LOL.

So the clock starts again!
 
This may sound crazy but I have done it and it worked I had ich I heated up ro and matched ph level in the ro I dipped the fish and it killed the ich right away a lfs told me about it didn't believe it but is was a last ditch attempt and it worked out well
 
I'm glad things are improving but did you say you've added new fish? I'm not sure that's a good idea, unless you've got another QT set up (ie not adding them to the ich infested QT or the ich infested DT). Maybe I'm reading this wrong?

2 yellow tangs aren't going to work out super well in a 40 gallon either...

Anyway, not trying to be negative, just don't want you to going through another cycle of fish loss. Good luck, ich is a real beast to deal with.
 
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