Fish not surviving tank transfer method

[andy01748]

Having problems with fish not surviving TTM and not sure why. This is the end of day 2 of the first tank and my red head solon fairy wrasse is struggling. Videos show how it is laboring (one taken with flash on to show better detail, second without flash so you can see white around eyes is artifact of flash).





Have a HOB filter, air stone, and LR installed. Found the purple fire fish dead this morning, and it seemed OK last night. The wrasse has not looked good since yesterday morning. Have added Amquel + (even though NH3 was barely detectable on API test). I also added Stress Coat+ this morning.

pH 8.2, Temp=76, salinity-=1.025. No toxic chemicals in use around tank. Saltwater made with RODI and IO salt, 24hr before adding fish.

At a loss on what is happening, as I lost another red head solon wrasse and flame angel last week (from a different LFS) during the TTM process.

Any suggestions on how to save this wrasse?

 

[Nina51]

how long did you have the fish before you started ttm? if you just got them, were they shipped or bought locally? how did you acclimate?

 

[andy01748]

how long did you have the fish before you started ttm? if you just got them, were they shipped or bought locally? how did you acclimate?

Bought locally last Saturday. Confirmed he was eating, and picked him up Sunday, and put him right into TTM. I got a sample of LFS water on Saturday, and SG was 1.027. Since I run my tanks at 1.025, I setup the TTM at 1.025 and drip acclimated the fish for two hours before adding to tank, with the understanding that dropping SG a couple of units shouldn't shock the fish (as could going up in salinity).

A couple of hours after adding the fish (wrasse and purple fire) on Sunday afternoon both were swimming around, and ate Mysis soaked in Selcon. On Monday morning the fire fish seemed OK but the wrasse was lying on the bottom with labored breathing, similar to the video from this evening.

 

[Nina51]

well, it sure sounds like you did everything right so i'm at a loss, too. i will be following this to see what the experts have to say. sure am sorry about your losses, i know it must be so disheartening for you.

do you have any pvc elbows in your qt for hiding spots? i can't imagine the lack of those would cause enough stress to kill a fish but who knows!

 

[Spar]

sorry to hear as well. i can tell you from experience that TTM has a much higher success rate than other QT methods though, so keep up at it.

first off, and not related to the deaths, but as FYI's, get rid of the HOB as is completely unnecessary (just airstone(s) is more than sufficient). May even be causing too much flow depending on the size of your TTM setups. What is "LR"... in this hobby tends to mean Live Rock. If so, should definately be removed from the equation unless you are QT'ing at after each transfer in isolation for 72 days... i am assuming you mean LR as something else though, likely also unnecessary to have though.

i personally use water from my DT as water for TTM. but, my DT is ich-free from inception, which is why I can use it. when I used new mixed water for TTM I had more deaths... not sure why, as plenty of other people use new mixed water with success. just as an in-case if you could start using DT water instead.

As Nina stated, give them some hiding places with PVC elbows/connectors.

Seems odd that the source keeps water at 1.027?? are you using a refractometer to test that? make sure calibrated if so, with 35ppt solution.

with some messy fish i do transfers every 2 days rather than every 3 to get clean water in the tank. you just have to do 6 transfers instead of 4.

otherwise, you seem to be tracking everything right, so I am unsure what could be going wrong.

 

[andy01748]

sorry to hear as well. i can tell you from experience that TTM has a much higher success rate than other QT methods though, so keep up at it.

first off, and not related to the deaths, but as FYI's, get rid of the HOB as is completely unnecessary (just airstone(s) is more than sufficient). May even be causing too much flow depending on the size of your TTM setups. What is "LR"... in this hobby tends to mean Live Rock. If so, should definately be removed from the equation unless you are QT'ing at after each transfer in isolation for 72 days... i am assuming you mean LR as something else though, likely also unnecessary to have though.

i personally use water from my DT as water for TTM. but, my DT is ich-free from inception, which is why I can use it. when I used new mixed water for TTM I had more deaths... not sure why, as plenty of other people use new mixed water with success. just as an in-case if you could start using DT water instead.

As Nina stated, give them some hiding places with PVC elbows/connectors.

Seems odd that the source keeps water at 1.027?? are you using a refractometer to test that? make sure calibrated if so, with 35ppt solution.

with some messy fish i do transfers every 2 days rather than every 3 to get clean water in the tank. you just have to do 6 transfers instead of 4.

otherwise, you seem to be tracking everything right, so I am unsure what could be going wrong.

I did add a section of PVC for hiding as recommended on RC. In fact that is the only difference in my setup from when I successfully did TTM on a bicolor angel several months ago.

I use a HOB for flow, since it gives me the option to add a filter (disposed off after use in one tank) in case I want to use carbon or filter floss. I'm just being extra conservative.

I do mean living rock. I figure it will help with ammonia. Again extra conservative. Is one time use only, and I will sterilize and recure after I have used it. I have a whole 30g tank of LR curing on its own, so no problem taking a piece out of service for a while!

The LFS had told me it should be around 1.025, but they had just made a fresh batch and done a water change. I was surprised it was that high, but I trust my Milwaukee refractometer. Case in point, the 1st LFS told me their water was 1.020, and that is what I got on a sample they gave on my instrument. Therefore, I trust my SG readings.

 

[andy01748]

i personally use water from my DT as water for TTM. but, my DT is ich-free from inception, which is why I can use it. when I used new mixed water for TTM I had more deaths... not sure why, as plenty of other people use new mixed water with success. just as an in-case if you could start using DT water instead.

I did a 50% change with DT water last night. Unfortunately, only impact was the purple fire fish passed!

 

[andy01748]

first off, and not related to the deaths, but as FYI's, get rid of the HOB as is completely unnecessary (just airstone(s) is more than sufficient).

The other advantage to having the HOB filter is I can use it to mix and heat the saltwater right in the tank (I use 8 gallons of SW in a 10 gallon tank) for TTM starting 24hrs ahead of the transfer. I find this more efficient than mixing 4 gallons at a time in a bucket.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Bought locally last Saturday. Confirmed he was eating, and picked him up Sunday, and put him right into TTM. I got a sample of LFS water on Saturday, and SG was 1.027. Since I run my tanks at 1.025, I setup the TTM at 1.025 and drip acclimated the fish for two hours before adding to tank, with the understanding that dropping SG a couple of units shouldn't shock the fish (as could going up in salinity).

Not at all. Fish can handle going from higher salinity to lower very well without much acclimation like you had done. It's the other way around that can really hurt them. Even then the difference in salinity should be substantial. Sorry about your experience. May be try Hyposalinity next time. Fairy wrasses can get stressed easily when moved from one tank to another often.

 

[andy01748]

So is there any hope for this wrasse or should I expect it to die as the previous one did?

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Unless I missed this in your posts, the wrasse does not seem to have crypto? Is that right? If that's the case I would just stop TTM immediately and keep it in QT under observation. Definitely do not give up.

 

[andy01748]

I'm not sure it will even make it to tomorrow's scheduled transfer anyway. The TTM was being done as prophylactic treatment before introducing to my DT (which is crypto free).

 

[Deinonych]

when I used new mixed water for TTM I had more deaths... not sure why, as plenty of other people use new mixed water with success. just as an in-case if you could start using DT water instead

I had similar problems with newly-mixed SW awhile back. I now make sure new SW is thoroughly mixed for at least 24 hours before adding to the QT. Then, I heavily aerate the QT with a powerhead overnight before doing a transfer. Haven't had any losses using this protocol.

 

[andy01748]

Curious if salt brand makes a difference? I am using Instant Ocean this time around. When I had success before I had used Reef Crystals using exact same procedure.

 

[Deinonych]

Could have been a bad batch, but unlikely. I use Instant Ocean exclusively.

 

[andy01748]

Any theories what in freshly mixed salt water causes what appears to be breathing problems? Seems there should be plenty of oxygen available now but there seems to be permanent damage to the fish's respiration system.

 

[sabo]

Have heard people mention ammonia in freshly mixed salt. Certainly sounds like it could be the issue

 

[Deinonych]

Any theories what in freshly mixed salt water causes what appears to be breathing problems? Seems there should be plenty of oxygen available now but there seems to be permanent damage to the fish's respiration system.

Not sure about ammonia, but freshly mixed saltwater tends to be more caustic than SW that has "aged." Likely has to do with pH, but don't quote me on that. Might be worth asking in the Reef Chemistry section. Rapid breathing isn't necessarily a sign of low oxygen, but it can be a symptom of general stress in a fish (which could be caused by less than ideal water parameters like low pH).

FWIW, I almost abandoned TTM as a treatment protocol when I lost several fish over a year ago. Once I ensured I was using properly aged/aerated SW, I haven't had any losses.

 

[andy01748]

The wrasse was still alive (barely) this morning. With no other input, I made the decision to transfer it to another tank with saltwater I made up with Reef Crystals that I mixed and aerated overnight. Have to see if there is any hope for recovery.

 

[Nina51]

good luck with him! and i agree...i always mix saltwater well ahead of time, usually several days before a water change is due. i have a couple of power heads and a heater in my mixing tub.