I have an 8 foot long tank about 175 gallon. I would like to have all pairs of fish. So far I have spawning pair of bird wrasses and a spawning pair of yellow damsels. I also added a couple of tomato clowns and a BTA hoping that they will pair off. I have one flame angel and would like to add a second. Anyone keping 2 flames sucessfully? Anyone have experience sexing flame angels?
Flame angel pair
- Thread starter tommmy
- Start date
oama
Premium Member
jallard said:
No, I don't think spawner was in any way claiming that all fish are hermaphrodites. And he did not even mention clownfish.
Some species of fish can be first female then male hermaphrodites and others, like clowns, can be males first. Other are sexually dimorphic from birth. Still others have a near parasitic male imbedded into the female that feed off of her blood and only function as a sperm production facility.
The sea is an old and varied Eco-system. Every conceivable combination can be found with in it's depths.
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And my 10....You can tell Doug was in Hawaii :rollface:
Doug, how are things? You guys have power? We never lost it this time. Sure was nice to have a 50KW standing by but still I was really happy to ride it out on the beach and never have to run to move plugs around.
protoandrous hermaphrodites: they start life as males (i.e. clownfish)
protogynous hermaphrodites: they start life as females (i.e. many angles)
simultaneous hermaphrodite: any two will do
Fish are very creative.
Glad your not on FPL Doug, I just dropped off a genset in Pompano Beach last night. The whole county is out of power and it looks like it will be that way for a while. Damage is nothing like last year but the main transmission lines got taken out. Algagen just got power back yesterday afternoon. Erik just got his Detroit genset installed two weeks ago, talk about timing.
I picked up a small Flame angel today 2 inch. Put him in the tank with a clear Plexiglas divider separating him from the rest of the tank. The original 3 1/2 inch Flame angel is showing dominance and aggression. Should I wait for a certain behavior between fish before removing divider?
David M
New member
"protoandrous hermaphrodites: they start life as males (i.e. clownfish)
protogynous hermaphrodites: they start life as females (i.e. many angles)
simultaneous hermaphrodite: any two will do"
Oh sure, I have a million things to do and no time for RC right now but you have to go and post this ??
I dunno, I do not have13, 10 or even <1 years of higher education in marine biology but I do read a lot, I do breed marine fish and I am a full time student at the School of Hard Knocks. I think it's more like this this:
protoandrous hermaphrodite: capable of transforming from unsexually assigned juvenile to male to female but not reversable.
protogynous hermaphrodite: capable of transforming from unsexualy assigned juvenile to female to male. Not reversable.
My understanding is that these possible changes are triggered by social and environmental factors beyond our comprehension at this time. In certain instances like two amphiprion clowns raised in isolation under ideal conditions there would be no reason for the dominant fish to "become male" and then "change" to female. It doesn't make sense, it will just develop as a female. In a group it would be a disadvantage if they were all "male" to start because the dominant male would see the others as rivals and drive them out. I have raised enough bangaii cardinals (protogynous) in groups to see how this works, if the dominant male sees a rival he will kill it. If his chosen mate is lost another will rise to the "queen" position. If you remove the pair from the group another fish will assume the dominant male position and choose another "queen".
Simultaneous hermaphrodite: capable of functioning as both male and female. As example look at the very common hamlets in the Caribbean, probably one of the most abundant fish in the location. I wonder why? Another example is the very common lysmata shrimp. Any two will not just become a "pair", but BOTH will carry and hatch eggs. In rare instances even one in isolation is capable os self fertilization, I have personally witnessed this.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just think it'a a tad more complicated than "born" male and "becomes" female
protogynous hermaphrodites: they start life as females (i.e. many angles)
simultaneous hermaphrodite: any two will do"
Oh sure, I have a million things to do and no time for RC right now but you have to go and post this ??
I dunno, I do not have13, 10 or even <1 years of higher education in marine biology but I do read a lot, I do breed marine fish and I am a full time student at the School of Hard Knocks. I think it's more like this this:protoandrous hermaphrodite: capable of transforming from unsexually assigned juvenile to male to female but not reversable.
protogynous hermaphrodite: capable of transforming from unsexualy assigned juvenile to female to male. Not reversable.
My understanding is that these possible changes are triggered by social and environmental factors beyond our comprehension at this time. In certain instances like two amphiprion clowns raised in isolation under ideal conditions there would be no reason for the dominant fish to "become male" and then "change" to female. It doesn't make sense, it will just develop as a female. In a group it would be a disadvantage if they were all "male" to start because the dominant male would see the others as rivals and drive them out. I have raised enough bangaii cardinals (protogynous) in groups to see how this works, if the dominant male sees a rival he will kill it. If his chosen mate is lost another will rise to the "queen" position. If you remove the pair from the group another fish will assume the dominant male position and choose another "queen".
Simultaneous hermaphrodite: capable of functioning as both male and female. As example look at the very common hamlets in the Caribbean, probably one of the most abundant fish in the location. I wonder why? Another example is the very common lysmata shrimp. Any two will not just become a "pair", but BOTH will carry and hatch eggs. In rare instances even one in isolation is capable os self fertilization, I have personally witnessed this.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just think it'a a tad more complicated than "born" male and "becomes" female
David M said:
Self fertilization is physiological impossible with these shrimp. Just because they held their eggs for a few or a week days doesn't mean they were fertilized. They don't store sperm either. They only way for you could have viable off spring would be to have another shrimp mate with the "isolated" shrimp.
BTW some Lysmata form tight pair bonds, others pair loosely, and many enjoy group fertilization, regardless you can get a "pair" from any two shrimp. We have not found primary males in the population thus far.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Tommmy - I have a pair of flame angels in my 100g.
The advice about small fish/big fish has merit -- but one person's "small" is not necessarily the same as another's
Here are some ways to determine sex from S.Michael's book -- The male has:
More orange overall *
Broader dark bars on the side, some may have an orange* line in the center
More blue on trim of posterior edge of dorsal & anal fins
*I think he means what I call yellow
It is possible for a 2 inch fish to already have made the change to male - which is probably not reversible if complete (some say it they've seen reversal if it wasn't finished)
The main factor that affects the change from female to male is the presence of a dominant male -- if one isn't present, like when kept in separate tanks at the fish store, a female can become a functioning male in as little as 20 days
Here's how I paired mine
I bought a 2 inch male, using Michael's sexing criteria, & the next day I picked up a female which was about 1 in. (and cute as heck) I dumped her in the tank & that was it. The only fishes he chases around are the coral beauty & the cherub angel. Which is not to say there isn't some dominant behavior he directs towards his female flame.
Hope this helps & good luck!
The advice about small fish/big fish has merit -- but one person's "small" is not necessarily the same as another's
Here are some ways to determine sex from S.Michael's book -- The male has:
More orange overall *
Broader dark bars on the side, some may have an orange* line in the center
More blue on trim of posterior edge of dorsal & anal fins
*I think he means what I call yellow
It is possible for a 2 inch fish to already have made the change to male - which is probably not reversible if complete (some say it they've seen reversal if it wasn't finished)
The main factor that affects the change from female to male is the presence of a dominant male -- if one isn't present, like when kept in separate tanks at the fish store, a female can become a functioning male in as little as 20 days
Here's how I paired mine
I bought a 2 inch male, using Michael's sexing criteria, & the next day I picked up a female which was about 1 in. (and cute as heck
) I dumped her in the tank & that was it. The only fishes he chases around are the coral beauty & the cherub angel. Which is not to say there isn't some dominant behavior he directs towards his female flame.Hope this helps & good luck!
The small flame was to be last fish added to tank. After keeping the two flames separated by Plexiglas divider for 24 hours I did notice behavior differences that seemed to point to a possible successful pairing. The next morning the small flame showed signs of ick. It was only visible first thing in morning when lights came on. Pulled the small flame back out and into quarantine tank and started hyposalenity treatment. I hope I have not contaminated my main tank. Maybe none of the ick dropped of into main tank. I guess it will be at least 30 days till I can try again.
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