Flame Angel w/Ich- Impossible To Catch

[KCZoanthid]

I bought this Flame a couple days ago and it is now starting to show signs of ich. The fish is eating very well and seams to act normal and healthy except for the ich.

None of the other fish in the tank have ever had ich or shown any signs of ich. They've all been very healthy.

I can't catch the Flame. I know you're supposed to remove the fish and QT it for 6 weeks. I can't catch it. The tank is a reef and it has a little over 2lbs of rock per gallon. Needless to say--the tank is PACKED with rocks. I have tried to net the Flame, but it's impossible. I really can't take my entire tank apart to catch this one little fish.

Are all my other fish going to get ich now?

Even if the Flame manages to fight the parasite and heal up--don't I have ich in the tank now?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Percula9]

Soak food in Garlic Extreme for 15-20 min. Feed multiple times through out the day. Should help him get over it. Garlic is not a curative, helps boost fishes immune system to fight it off.

 

[tmz]

Yes you do have ich in the tank now. You're other fish may get it. Your angel may die from it or it may shake it off. If you wan't to learn more about the ich do a web search for Cryptocaryon irritans.
You can break the tank down and qt all fish for 4-6 weeks symptom free and treat with hyposalinity or copper leaving your main tank fishles for 72 days. The ich will perish.
In the alternative you can cope with it and hope for the best for 11months with no new fish added to your tank. The parasite strain has been shown to have a limit of 34 life cycles which takes about 11 months. If you don't introduce any new strains in that period of time you'll be rid of it.
During that period , you need to maintain a super low stress environment( pristine water,consistent temperature ,ph and salinity etc.) for your fish and feed them well. Garlic extreme will do no harm and will enhance appetite and its a good straw to grab. I use it regulary but have qualms about it's effectiveness as an immune system booster. It seems the active ingredient in garlic that helps the immune system in people is allicin which is only active for about an hour after the juice is squeezed. So a concentrate like Garlic Extreme preserved in citric acid may be of little if any real benefit.Fresh garlic is also unproven as an immune system booster for marine fish.
There are a number of products on the market which claim effectiveness against marine ich and claim to be reef safe. I would not recommend any of them. The only proven effective methods are qt with copper or hyposalinity.
A Uv sterilizer if appropriately sized may be of benefit in warding off secondary infections from waterborn bacteria or dinoflagellate algae infections such as the almost always fatal amyloodinium(the other ich or marine velvet).The ich parasite Cryptocaryon irritans is a rather large bit of microfauna and as such is not likely to be killed by a typical sterlilizer.
Some have stated that a diatom filter will strain out some parasites during their waterborn phase.
Be aware that your fish may appear to be healing only to appear with a more massive infestation within a week. At some point if it progresses your fish will be weak enough to catch and possible treat. By that time it is likely too late but the fish should nonetheless be removed as soon as you can.
After the 11 months you need to qt all new specimens if you wan't to stay ich free.

 

[natan]

I am so glad to see this flame-free thread on the ich, for a change! Have seen too many here with pages upon pages of flaming responses like "you should've done quarantine", as if it's of any help to a person who already has the bloody bug in the reef system. As I am currently having the same issue myself (as a result of introducing a frag which arguably came from a fish-free system!), and things are not looking good for my fish, I am after any possible solution if available. Today I was tolled that before cuper was available on the market, people were using antimalaria drugs, and these were supposedly both reef safe and effective. Wonder if anyone here has personal experience with the stuff?

 

[tmz]

Yeah, Idon't think it helps to make someone feel worse than they already do. Having said that QT looks like a daunting task to many but it isn't that difficult especially compared to coping with ich. If a tank is relatively young, it is, in my opinion,better to take it down and rid it of ich and keep it ich free via qt, than to try and wait it out. This parasite is nasty, the secondary infections are worse and no one want's to sit by and watch these creatures suffer potentially for 11months if they live through it. Later when a tank is laden with corals many of them enrusting it can become impossible to breakdown without doing more harm than good.

 

[KCZoanthid]

Breaking down the tank is simply not an option here. It's just too big and I don't have anyplace to put all the live rock (460lbs) and corals while I empty it and then get out the net. I'd have to go out and buy 6 or 8 large rubbermaid bins to store all the rock and corals. I just am not willing to do that. Not yet anyhow.

The Flame angel looks almost completely healthy now. Only one tiny white spot on his left pectoral fin today. No more spots on his body or head.

Does that just mean they all dropped off and are about to hatch and become free-floating in the water column? Ready to infect my other fish?

Or, does it mean the Flame pulled through and will be fine now?

I have read quite a bit in the last couple days. I'm thinking the Flame just survived the initial infection and will begin healing. I think I have--or am about to have-- ich free-floating in my water column now.

I'm not adding anymore fish to the system. The flame was the last addition. It took a LOT of agonizing to even add an angel to my reef, but they are such a beautiful fish. I am very conservative with stocking limits and some would say I could go ahead and add 5 or 6 more fish, but I'd rather each had plenty of space to swim and a place to call home. I've never been one to overstock and crowd my fish for fear they will be constantly stressed.

So far, the flame hasn't eaten any corals. He picks at algae (which is why I bought him) and seams to get along with his tankmates. He's eating very well. First one in line when the pumps are shut off at feeding time. Rather aggressive when making sure he gets his share of the food.

So, if they all survive the next 11-12 months, I should be in the clear?

 

[tmz]

Good Luck, I hope they all fend it off.

When you see the spots, you are seeing exit wounds caused by the protozoan when it bores through the fishes flesh to exit the fish. They exit at night and usually settle on the substrate or rock near where the fish is resting for the night. They multiply into cysts which "hatch" a night in search of a host,many of them reinfest the same fish. The rest move about looking for a host.
Fish can sometimes survive a bout with cryptocaryon irritans without treatment. However, just because you don't see spots doesn't mean they're not there. Some cysts can remain viable for 72 days and some infecting parasites could be in the gills unseen. The cryptocaryon parasite can damage the gills and can weaken surviving fish increasing there susceptability to other pathenogens.

34 life cycles(about 11 months) is the max according to tests for a single strain. After that it stops reproducing. I hope you suceed.

 

[paulamrein]

If anyone would add a fish, but before they do quarantine it to not add additional strains of ich, could they possibly still fall under that category of the 11 month life cycle time? I've done extensive research on ich, and I have heard that about the 34 life cycles being max. It would go to show that though the QT fish will in fact get ich within a day or two of introduction, it will be the same strain therefore not count against the 11 month time line. So adding fish would theoretically be a possibility. Any thoughts?

 

[natan]

Unfortunately, it probably does mean just that-they left the fish and are about to infect the rest. And, if the ich persists, i dought they can handle it for a year(it ether goes away or becomes worth with every sycle, to the point of killing fish within weeks).
Anyhow, after 3 weeks i'v had enough. Went in at night with a tourch covered with read nylon and managed to catch all of mine with minimal damage to the rockwork (they never even woke up in 20 minutes it took me to get them all). Lucky me, you may want 2 try this. When i went in, i just wanted to get the mandarin and didnt even think i'll get a chance with the gramma. Its for the cuper now, hope its not too late for my poor mandarin. The lonely longnose was the only one stupid enough to be caught deuring the day, and is in the cuper for a week already. So, now i am oficcially fishless

 

[KCZoanthid]

From all I've been reading, it seams to me that a single strain of ich will get progressively weaker and weaker with respect to reproductive ability. That doesn't mean it is too weak to infect a fish. It means they have experienced too much cell degradation to effectively reproduce. And finally sometime around 34 life cycles--it will not be able to reproduce again.

To me--that means if you can keep the tank (fish) alive for 11-12 months, then you have effectively killed the strain of ich. How many time those particular fish will get infected is anybody's guess ......... Can they survive multiple infections over the course of a year? Would you want to put them through it? Tough decisions.

I'm really torn right now. The Flame angel looks perfectly fine right now. But, I am about 99% positive that I'll have free-swimming ich in my tank sometime in the next 72hrs-- up to 28 days. So, I guess what that means is if my fish don't show anymore signs of ich, I may have it licked. It takes somewhere between 3 days and 28 days for them to reproduce and hatch out a new generation. If that new generation doesn't manage to infect any of my fish, I may be safe. Quite frankly, what are the chances that the new generation won't be able to infect at least one fish and continue the cycle? Unfortunately, not very good. Healthy fish? I think they are very healthy (except the recent addition), but is it enough?

Very educational--even if it is a sucky subject.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11335901#post11335901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
If anyone would add a fish, but before they do quarantine it to not add additional strains of ich, could they possibly still fall under that category of the 11 month life cycle time? I've done extensive research on ich, and I have heard that about the 34 life cycles being max. It would go to show that though the QT fish will in fact get ich within a day or two of introduction, it will be the same strain therefore not count against the 11 month time line. So adding fish would theoretically be a possibility. Any thoughts?

Why would someone deliberately place a fish in an environment where it would be infected? Wether or not the new fish was carrying in a new strain of ich would depend on the adequacy of quarantine.

 

[paulamrein]

It was a question to ponder, I have successfully QT all fish and they are awaiting my upgrade. It was on subject so I thought I would ask, there are plenty of people out there that never QT and they have a huge system with 30 fish, they say, "if a fish gets ich, I feed them more and it goes away only to come back again." For those people, I wanted a solution

 

[KCZoanthid]

All fish appear healthy today. No signs of ich.

 

[350nine]

KC, I am going through what you are experiencing. Ich is most common in new setups. I broke down my tank 3 times to treat the same 8 fish for ich within the past 5 months. The first time I did not follow through with the 8 weeks fallow time.The second time I did not medicate properly somehow. This time I am coppering for a full month and testing every night before bedtime(mine) and fallowing for the 2 full months. I know it's a tough decision wether to tear down and hospitalize or wait and see. I was leaning towards the wait and see route this time around because my fish appear very healthy with only the occasional spot and scratching. But I know it's just a matter of time... I also have a lot of rock(350 lbs.) but you can just pile it on a large piece of cardboard right in front the tank while you catch the fish and put it right back. It wouldn't hurt anything except for a sore arm the next day. The corals can go in a tub with a heater. It's more work but you will feel better knowing you did the right thing. Otherwise you will spend every uncertain day watching your fish suffer,maybe right up to their death. AND THAT IS NO FUN! I am now into my 3rd fallow week and fish are looking good in hospital. Good luck.

 

[KCZoanthid]

The ich is back with a vengence on the flame angel.

One of my clowns has 3 spots too. He's got it for sure.

I'll be tearing my tank apart to catch all the fish and put them into a QT tank for about 8 weeks. I've sectioned off a 55g tank with baffles to keep the fish separated during QT. Don't need any fights or murders when they are in close quarters.

And the fun begins tomorrow evening.

 

[tmz]

350nine, A month of continuous copper may be harmful. As an alternative,it could be 2 weeks and then 4 to6weeks of observation with redosing if symptoms appear. You can remove the copper from the qt tank after 2 weeks with carbon or polypad.