Flame Angelfish

[Gunjee]

Hello all, I am need of some assistance with Flame Angelfish...

I've got a 75 gallon reef. The tank is 9 months old. I've got a dozen or so frags in there that have matured nicely. I've got 6 fish that are also maturing nicely: 1 cinnamon clownfish, 1 clarkii clownfish, 1 spotted cardinalfish, 1 tomini tang, 1 one spot fox face, and 1 purple firefish. And I've got snails and hermit crabs...

Everything is thriving - water parameters are perfect. Two months ago, I picked up a Flame Angelfish. This is one of my favorite fish - I got into the saltwater hobby because of this fish. The Flame Angelfish was doing well; did not show any signs of illness. A few days into it, I noticed that it was a finicky eater. It would barely touch mysis shrimp, and rarely picked at veggie clips. It would just pick at the rocks all day long. Unfortunately, a week later it died...

I was devistated. Checked all the parameters of the tank, and found nothing wrong. I figured that maybe something was wrong with the fish. So about a month later, I picked up another Flame Angelfish from another LFS. Both of these stores are reputable and I've never had issues with their livestock. Long story short, the second Flame Angelfish did not eat much and died as well. I tried everything from dipping food in garlic, to getting the frozen angelifish formula food...

I'm done with Flame Angelfish for now, but would like to add a Flame Angelfish at some point in time. I have been doing some research online and found that they are indeed finicky eaters and require lots of algae. Some forums even mentioned having a significant population of copepods...

So I'm just reaching out to you guys to give me tips on how to prepare my tank for a Flame Angelfish. If it's just a matter of maturing the tank, then I'll be patient and let the tank mature. But if there's anything else that I need to do, please give me feedback...

I feed the tank once every 2 days or so. I even increased that to once a day for the Flame Angelifish. But I have failed miserably...

Thanks for your time...

 

[Lavoisier]

Did you quarantine the Flame? Can you post your parameters? Where did you obtain your fish?

 

[Gunjee]

Ammonia = 0 ppm
Nitrite = 0 ppm
Nitrate = 0 ppm
pH = 8.2
Calcium = 390 ppm
Hardness = 161 ppm
Phosphate = 0 ppm
Salinity = 1.026
Temperature = 80 degrees

I did not quarantine the fish. Honestly, I don't usually quarantine new additions to the tank - I don't have a quarantine tank. The fish was obtained from two LFS - both reputable. For the second Flame Angelfish, I asked the aquarist to feed the fish before buying it. The fish did nip at a few pieces, but nothing crazy. I guess I was just too eager to get the fish...

The Flame Angelfish usually get sold within days, so I don't have a chance to see them in the LFS for a couple of days to observe their eating habits. They were caught from the wild - Hawaii I believe...

 

[Lavoisier]

Your parameters are great. I know it is difficult to quarantine and if you cannot to that then you must insit that the LFS holding the fish for 2 weeks (it should be 6 weeks but we have to compromise) and if they will not I will not buy from them. The risk is what you experienced. Not worth it for me...

 

[Gunjee]

Funny you say that...I stopped by the LFS today and asked them to hold the fish for me. And he was being a dick saying that it's too much work to hold the fish. I've seen them do it before - write "sold" on the glass - but only for really expensive fish...

I will ask the second LFS to see if they will hold it...

But what about the diet...? Am I doing something wrong...? Is the frequency okay - every 2 days. I try to keep feeding to a minimum to keep the parameters in a good range...

What about maturity...? Do I have enough algae or copepods - should I add copepods...?

 

[Lavoisier]

I think you are doing everything right; but if the fish is not healthy you will not be able to save it. You have to have a healthy fish to be successful and the only way you can make that judgement is after a 6 week quarantine. You simply cannot know without that observation period. Any experienced reefer will tell you that you have to quarantine. :hammer:

 

[Gunjee]

Out of curiosity - what does a quarantine tank entail...? Is a 5 gallon tank enough...? Can I use one of those cheap hang on the back filters? What about a Rubbermaid container without a filter...?

 

[Lavoisier]

You probably want to go at least 10g for water stability. A Rubbermaid container is sufficient with a simple air pump/sponge filter (keep the sponge filter in your overflow or sump to sustain the bacteria pre-quarantine). You'll need to add top off (buy a gallon of distilled water from Walmart for $1 if you do not have RODI) and check parameters weekly, just like your DST. It is not expensive just laborious but from your post I can see you are already working hard at our wonderful hobby. :hb2:

By the way, most reputable retailers offer a 2 week live guarantee.

 

[woodnaquanut]

I will ask the second LFS to see if they will hold it...

But what about the diet...? Am I doing something wrong...? Is the frequency okay - every 2 days. I try to keep feeding to a minimum to keep the parameters in a good range...

You only feed once every two days?

Most fish should be fed several times a day. Don't starve the fish just because you don't want to clean up the poop!

New fish need even more food. They usually come in having been unfed for days and are very stressed.

Set up a QT. 10G tank, heater and HOB filter. It gives the new guy a chance to recover and gain weight without having to compete in the DT. Treat for Ich (tank transfer, Chloriquine phosphate or cupramine) and internal parasites (PraziPro).

I disagree with having the LFS hold the fish. None are equipped to properly QT. The LFS might be the most stressful place to keep a fish. Noise, lights, lots of people walking around, kids (and adults!) tapping on the tanks, new fish, fish being netted out. It's like taking a relaxing vacation at Target on black Friday!!:twitch:

 

[Gunjee]

I don't limit the feeding because I'm lazy to clean up the poop. Most forums that I have been reading through for the past few months talk about limiting feeding to prevent algae blooms and spikes in parameters. I keep the skimmer on 24/7, and it collects a LOT of poop. And the Fox Face and Tomini Tang clean the tank thoroughly by picking at the rocks and sand on non-feeding days...

I mean, everything has been doing excellent, so I don't know. I figured feeding a couple of times a day is a disaster...

What is an "HOB" filter...?

 

[Gunjee]

I've been reading and YouTubing a lot of quarantine tanks. I think it's best if I keep one 24/7. Do I need another type of filtration other than the sponge filter for a 24/7 tank...?

I'm not going to have any substrate, but is live rock necessary. I was thinking about filling it up with the display tank's water to accelerate the cycling...

 

[Moort82]

You only feed once every two days?

Most fish should be fed several times a day. Don't starve the fish just because you don't want to clean up the poop!

New fish need even more food. They usually come in having been unfed for days and are very stressed.

Set up a QT. 10G tank, heater and HOB filter. It gives the new guy a chance to recover and gain weight without having to compete in the DT. Treat for Ich (tank transfer, Chloriquine phosphate or cupramine) and internal parasites (PraziPro).

I disagree with having the LFS hold the fish. None are equipped to properly QT. The LFS might be the most stressful place to keep a fish. Noise, lights, lots of people walking around, kids (and adults!) tapping on the tanks, new fish, fish being netted out. It's like taking a relaxing vacation at Target on black Friday!!:twitch:

I'd go with most of that. Fish depending on their natural diet would need multiple feeds a day and fish normally settle better with a little and often approach. Just think if it only nibbles at the food, it has a much better chance of picking it up over a few days if it gets a few chances to feed. Spread that out over a week and the fish will likely become weakened and your on to a loser.
There is no reason why a tank should develop algae problems just from feeding a couple of times a day. It basically all about nutrients and how much your tank can export.

 

[woodnaquanut]

Sorry Gunjee, I didn't mean to imply you were lazy. It's more about setting up systems that deal with the wastes produced. Lots of approaches. Algae turf scrubber, GFO, water changes, bio pellets etc. I know there are more but my brain NEEDS caffeine!

Many SMALL feedings are better for the fish. It's required for some fish like Anthias that have little or no stomach. I believe there is less stress if food is available often. I know I'd be a lot more aggressive if I only got food once every other day!

HOB is Hang On Back. Filters like AquaClear.

You don't need to keep a QT running 24/7. Just keep a filter sponge in the display tank sump. DT water has little advantage for jump starting a QT. The water has very little bacteria compared to a sponge. It's also important not to move a sponge from the QT to the DT unless you sterilize it first.

QTs don't need rock or sand (except some wrasses). If you medicate in QT, rock and sand absorb medications and make proper dosing difficult. Just get some PVC fittings that can be easily cleaned.

 

[ca1ore]

FWIW, Flame Angels are not particularly easy to keep and are quite suceptible to collecting stress (maybe even being caught with cyanide). It is also a fish, along with many of the other dwarf species, that will graze the rocks for algae almost continuously. I have a Potters angel, for example, that rarely eats the foods I add, but picks at the rocks all the time.

Feeding only once every two days is not enough - particularly for those fish who are accustomed to eating regularly. I feed mine, for example, 2-3 times daily. I have had the most sucess QTing Angels in a 20L that contains a good amount of live rock. Should the fish require medication, I remove the rock.

 

[pktech]

Ammonia = 0 ppm
Nitrite = 0 ppm
Nitrate = 0 ppm
pH = 8.2
Calcium = 390 ppm
Hardness = 161 ppm
Phosphate = 0 ppm
Salinity = 1.026
Temperature = 80 degrees

I did not quarantine the fish. Honestly, I don't usually quarantine new additions to the tank - I don't have a quarantine tank. The fish was obtained from two LFS - both reputable. For the second Flame Angelfish, I asked the aquarist to feed the fish before buying it. The fish did nip at a few pieces, but nothing crazy. I guess I was just too eager to get the fish...

The Flame Angelfish usually get sold within days, so I don't have a chance to see them in the LFS for a couple of days to observe their eating habits. They were caught from the wild - Hawaii I believe...

Dr fosters has them on super sale right now - check it out

 

[albano]

... They were caught from the wild - Hawaii I believe...

Safe bet that they are not from Hawaii... They are rarely available...

FWIW, Flame Angels are not particularly easy to keep and are quite suceptible to collecting stress (maybe even being caught with cyanide). It is also a fish, along with many of the other dwarf species, that will graze the rocks for algae almost continuously. I have a Potters angel, for example, that rarely eats the foods I add, but picks at the rocks all the time.

Feeding only once every two days is not enough - particularly for those fish who are accustomed to eating regularly. I feed mine, for example, 2-3 times daily. I have had the most sucess QTing Angels in a 20L that contains a good amount of live rock. Should the fish require medication, I remove the rock.

+1...many people have trouble keeping flames, probably related to area/collection methods...great fish though, I can't recall ever having a tank without a flame angel in past 40+ yrs... I currently have 4 in my 450g DT...always have fed my fish 2-3 times a day.

 

[Whiterabbitrage]

Sorry about the loss of your first two Flames, Gungee. That really sucks.
I did not used to quarantine fish either, but it has benefits. I have a ten gallon tank with a HOB filter, and run it 24/7 . I keep it in my laundry room. The best part of a QT for me is that the fish get to know me. Because the tank is small and they are alone without distractions, it's easier for them to figure out that you bring food. They get used to you. You can watch for disease of course, but you also learn the fish's behavior. It's much easier to see what and how much exactly that the fish is eating, because you are basically target feeding them. You pick up on idiosyncrasies that you would have missed in a large tank. Plus the fish get to know you. They see you and come to be fed. So once they get transferred to the DT they transition easier. They come out when they see you, so it's easier to keep an eye on their health. I dunno, I just really like the fish bonding time I get with a QT tank.


Since a Flame is a grazer and likes a bit of algae, maybe you could put some medium size rubble in your DT to grow algae then transfer them to the QT when you get the angel.

Also I am a big fan of Pod Piles. I suggest piles of rock rubble in the back and corners of your DT then add pods at night so the fish don't eat them right away. The pods should establish breeding colonies in the rubble piles. DrF&S has a great selection of pods.

Good luck with your next attempt.

 

[dogface 13]

ive had a few in my time over the years, i've lost 2 then finally took a gamble on a 3rd and it was super big one. It's fine and thriving, my tank is mature and he does nip at the rocks often. just my 2 cents

 

[Daniel62]

My flames favorite food is nori rubber banded to a rock, I am surprised how much of this he will eat. I also say you are feeding way to little. QT also and I do a prazi dose to boot. Awesome colored fish

 

[Iowafisher]

My flames favorite food is nori rubber banded to a rock, I am surprised how much of this he will eat. I also say you are feeding way to little. QT also and I do a prazi dose to boot. Awesome colored fish

I see most dwarf angles eating nori more than tangs. even if I had not tangs I would still put out nori for my beauty