Flirting with Reefing - prep questions

B

benstatic

New member
well, I've thought about this a lot over the last 20 years.

I just built a 67" long aquarium rack that will eventually house several tanks - the only space spoken for is on a 20gal long where my son will be raising blue azureus dart froglets - currently in tadpole form.

That means I have room enough for 3 more 20 gal longs!!!!
Now is my excuse to experiment with SW!!!
(Might also experiment with cichlid breeding, but now I have the space!!!)

I've always wanted a coral tank, and am looking at how to set it all up.

I want to set up a low cost system, where I eventually get into soft and / or SPS corals, maybe some other inverts, and maybe 1 -2 fish. I need some better understanding of latest / greatest thinking on filtration, or if I should just experiment and how I would know when my tank was properly ready to maintain zooanthids.

The research i've done is confusing. It seems this hobby has changed rapidly over the last 10-20 years - and google forum research brings up posts from 2005. Not only that, but I tend to notice that a lot of forum users can be.... exacting (or paranoid or superstitious?) in what they think is needed.

I am leaning nano - 20gal long sounds great, and 100% realize it won't be as forgiving...
Would I need a skimmer? I am leaning to not getting one to save cost. How would I know I should invest in one of these? High nitrates & being tired of h2o changes?? How much reduction in labor will they net out with?
Would I need a sump? what size relative to tank, and what would I expect it to do - just hide stuff, or grow macro algae? Float carbon socks?
If I were to (after appropriate LR cycle) just get a cleanup crew (snails / crabs) - do I feed them anything, or do they just eat the crud inside the live rock + algae? They will eventually be cleaning up around corals - guidance on what to get?
How would I know my tank is prepped for coral introduction? Just reliably 0 nitrate / phosphate levels?
 
I can't edit this post, but - I have been reading thru the stickies -
I just am a bit of a skeptic when I read all the equipment people think is required.

You would think that a new set up is a minimum $1K set up cost 80gal pre-drilled tank, with a skimmer, sump, refugium, minimum 4 powerheads, HID lighting, at least 1 or two reactors, a full water change and top off station, high volume RODI unit, multiple buckets outfitted with heaters & circulation pumps, another separate quarantine tank, and 50% water changes weekly or more to top it all off.

I feel like the hobby is unnecessarily daunting to a new person starting out, and that is intentionally done to keep people out of the hobby and sell people with the means more stuff.

okay / sorry for newbie rant. I really just want a way to toe in to this hobby and grow the skills, equipment over the course of many years. I might have all that stuff when I am ready to die.
 
What you didn't read about in the stickies is all the newbies who try and get started in the hobby, fail miserably and go away. My best guess is that for every reefer who has been in the hobby for 5 years or more, there are at least a dozen or more who tried, failed and gave up. This isn't a simple hobby unless you keep your tank VERY simple, as in just a couple of simple fish.

I agree that many here are into the 'lets buy more new hardware' and that isn't truly needed. But don't fool yourself into thinking keeping saltwater tanks is easy.

So just what are your plans? What do you want to keep? And remember, 20g tanks of saltwater can be even more difficult than slightly bigger tanks.
 
benstatic said:
I feel like the hobby is unnecessarily daunting to a new person starting out, and that is intentionally done to keep people out of the hobby and sell people with the means more stuff.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of simple and inexpensive ways to get into the hobby. But this hobby also has a lot of very sensitive, very expensive, and very hard to care for creatures in it. Thus the glut of tech to go with it. You say SPS, I say don't bother if you want to start off simple and cheap.

You say Zoa, thats more like it. Though as a warning, you can wreak your wallet buying some zoanthids haha. 20 gallon long for zoas is easy. Get the tanks, 20 lbs live rock, 20lbs sand, small HOB filter, one or two small cheap power heads, light, heater and RODI system.

Skimmer won't be needed, can get it for sure though, helps clean up the water a bit. FYI it is rare to get away with not doing water changes, and a skimmer won't help you in that endeavor. A sump is nice to hide gear. If you want a clean looking tank, a big heater in the corner defeats that. Put that and a skimmer in the sump. Also adds more water movement, as now you have a return pump pushing water out of the sump into the tank. Adds water volume, more water means more stability. Adds a spot to stick your auto top off into, since the return section of the sump is the only area that would fluctuate in water height.
 
Saltwater is not cheap. So if your expecting to start a tank for under a couple hundred bucks, then don't start. I actually thought I could start a 5.5 gallon as my first SW tank for under a 100 bucks (even with getting a free filter, heater, and tank). I was wrong.. lol Yet, there are still cheaper ways (reef hobby cheap, not normal people cheap :lmao::lmao:) of staring out and maintaining; I'll give an example in a second.

I would highly recommend a sump! Little extra setup and planning, but well worth it!

Now don't get me wrong, skimmers are not NEEDED. But, after being a person who said that skimmer aren't necessary, to trying one out has changed my view. A decent skimmer will pull out a bunch of junk, and is VERY beneficial to the system. It is not needed, but highly suggested IMO.

Now here comes my "cheap" example. Name brand skimmers are very expensive, like really expensive. However, SCA makes a "off brand" skimmer that has been working well for me. https://www.amazon.com/SC-Aquariums-SCA-301-Protein-Skimmer/dp/B00CML49CK And is worth every penny IMO
 
Yooo dude.

I only started in September. 30 Gallon long tank.


Rock and sand are your two biggest startup costs, if you do it 'right'. You can get by in a 20 gallon tank with nothing but powerheads, and a heater, no filter of any kind.

But you want a refractometer to confirm salinity. (Can you use a hydrometer? Sure, if you can use one well. I had both, returned the hydrometer.) 60$ in my country, with shipping.

You want a testing kit for reef-specific concerns, especially if you want coral. That means calcium, phosphate and alkalinity. Maybe magnesium, iodine, strontium, etc, depending on how deep down the rabbit hole you feel like going. This would have cost me close to 200$ in my country, the way I want to buy them.

If you don't have a RODI unit, you will get algae. Ask me, I did. IT wasn't tooooo bad, and I got by. But I bought a RODI unit. A small but well reviewed one, 120$.

If you are like me and already did fresh water, your freshwater test kits will work for nitrite, ammonia(if its API, not well), nitrate, and pH.

If you just want to get GOING, the only thing you need is sand, rock, and salt. OR just rock and salt if you are going bare bottom... But I'd suggest budgeting more into it. I'm trucking along still myself, welcome to the fun.
 
20g tank, hob filter,sand,water,light,htr,rock,test kits....$300 min before you add coral or fish.
 
We just started with a used 54g corner. Tank and stand was about 250. It came with a sump, but it wasn’t tall enough for the skimmer. Ended up getting a new skimmer, new pump, new LED light, power heads, etc. Ended up costing a lot. But it is so much fun
 
I totally understand how overwhelming all of the information can be, and how daunting it can appear from a financial perspective. Yes, saltwater is definitely expensive, but this entire hobby (and most, if not all other hobbies) is about using money that surely could be spent on more "responsible" things on a personal passion that enriches, educates and hopefully, creates peace in your mind/home.

You can go hi-tech or low-tech. It all depends on what you want to keep, and how much manual maintenance you want to do. This is true of freshwater planted tanks, home entertainment systems, etc...

You have to know yourself. I've always been a low-tech guy. I'm a longtime freshwater guy who has one reef tank, one aquatic newt tank and one freshwater planted tank.

I run a 33 long reef with live rock and sand, a strong wavemaker, a heater and an LED light. That's it. I keep my fish simple and only keep a few hardy corals. I've had it up for two years, and am perfectly happy with it. No, it is not full of fancy corals. That's OK. People still love this dang tank when they come to my house. Kids are entranced. Adults who don't give a damn suddenly give a damn.

If this is your first reef tank and you're feeling overwhelmed, I would recommend starting out very simple and low-tech, and see how you like that. You may want to upgrade everything later once you get the hang of things, so you have to keep that in mind and know whether you are generally a high-tech guy or a low-tech guy, a fussy-fish/coral guy or an easy fish/coral guy. If you're generally hi-tech, fussy fish/coral and like to keep up with the Joneses, then start higher up on the hi-tech scale.

You can probably get a 20-long started with a few hundred bucks if you really look for deals online and in your local fish club. By the way, JOIN YOUR LOCAL FISH CLUB! Your most expensive purchases will be your lighting and live rock and sand. The great thing about a 20-long is that it's short (like my 33 long), so it's a lot easier to get a lot of light to your corals.

Good luck!
 
By low cost - I mean that I fully expect to invest ~$450 to start up. When I see newbies being told to get 120 gallon tanks with 1 lb of live rock (or 1/2 live rock) per gallon (plus accessories) I just sort of wonder how anybody ever bothered to try this out...

I already keep a high tech CO2 injected planted tank - I understand high cost hobbies - and have a lot of equipment to borrow from there... its those SW specific tools that sort of confuse me.

The skimmer prices would add another $250 it looks like (at least the ones I've seen).

And that is before buying any inverts.
I would like to try to get a combo soft and SPS set up going. But I also expect its going to take 6 months before I even get past my first coral.
I imagine I will have 1 fish - maybe 2, and a cleanup crew or maybe a shrimp or something that isn't going to pick apart my corals.

I fully expect to do water changes weekly (hoping I can get away with 5 gal changes on a 20 gal tank - i.e. 20%.) And I have so many hobbies requiring clean water that I probably should already own an RO unit.
 
benstatic said:
The skimmer prices would add another $250 it looks like (at least the ones I've seen).

I fully expect to do water changes weekly (hoping I can get away with 5 gal changes on a 20 gal tank - i.e. 20%.) And I have so many hobbies requiring clean water that I probably should already own an RO unit.
Click to expand...

You don't need a skimmer for a 20 gallon tank. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

A skimmer will HELP you, but in a tank that small you can easily keep up just by your water changes. Even 5 gallons a week would be more (probably almost way more) then you needed. I think I was told at most to do 10% a week on my 30 gallon, or roughly 12 gallons a month, so I've been doing 5 gallons biweekly.
 
benstatic said:
By low cost - I mean that I fully expect to invest ~$450 to start up. When I see newbies being told to get 120 gallon tanks with 1 lb of live rock (or 1/2 live rock) per gallon (plus accessories) I just sort of wonder how anybody ever bothered to try this out...

I already keep a high tech CO2 injected planted tank - I understand high cost hobbies - and have a lot of equipment to borrow from there... its those SW specific tools that sort of confuse me.

The skimmer prices would add another $250 it looks like (at least the ones I've seen).

And that is before buying any inverts.
I would like to try to get a combo soft and SPS set up going. But I also expect its going to take 6 months before I even get past my first coral.
I imagine I will have 1 fish - maybe 2, and a cleanup crew or maybe a shrimp or something that isn't going to pick apart my corals.

I fully expect to do water changes weekly (hoping I can get away with 5 gal changes on a 20 gal tank - i.e. 20%.) And I have so many hobbies requiring clean water that I probably should already own an RO unit.
Click to expand...

You'll be fine, then. Sounds like all you really need in terms of equipment is a wavemaker and a good light. I agree with Rover that you do not need a skimmer.

Good luck.
 
benstatic said:
By low cost - I mean that I fully expect to invest ~$450 to start up. When I see newbies being told to get 120 gallon tanks with 1 lb of live rock (or 1/2 live rock) per gallon (plus accessories) I just sort of wonder how anybody ever bothered to try this out...

I already keep a high tech CO2 injected planted tank - I understand high cost hobbies - and have a lot of equipment to borrow from there... its those SW specific tools that sort of confuse me.

The skimmer prices would add another $250 it looks like (at least the ones I've seen).

And that is before buying any inverts.
I would like to try to get a combo soft and SPS set up going. But I also expect its going to take 6 months before I even get past my first coral.
I imagine I will have 1 fish - maybe 2, and a cleanup crew or maybe a shrimp or something that isn't going to pick apart my corals.

I fully expect to do water changes weekly (hoping I can get away with 5 gal changes on a 20 gal tank - i.e. 20%.) And I have so many hobbies requiring clean water that I probably should already own an RO unit.
Click to expand...

I think you could do it for around $500. Put most of that into a good light though. LED I'd suggest. Lets see:

20L: $20 at PetCo $/gal
20lb rock: $53.80 https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-reef-saver-dry-aquarium-live-rock.html
20lb Sand: $33.99 https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/original-grade-ocean-direct-live-reef-sand.html
Powerhead: $32.99 https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/koralia-nano-240.html
Light: $349.99 https://www.reefbreeders.com/shop/photon-24-v2/
Refractometer: $39.99 https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/refractometer-for-reading-salinity-with-calibration-fluid.html
Testing: 88.39 https://www.amazon.com/Salifert-Mas...765&sr=8-4-fkmr0&keywords=salifert+all+in+one

This doesn't include RODI, thats about $100 for a decent one I think. So a little more than $500, but also didn't shop around much for stuff, just gave examples. Obviously budget lights can be used, but I really like my reefbreeders so I tend to suggest them. Cheaper version, you'd need two, and they aren't programmable, but thats $100 saved. https://www.amazon.com/MarsAqua-Dim...id=1509642022&sr=1-1&keywords=mars+aqua+light

And if you really plan on just one or two fish, you 100% don't need a skimmer. Water changes should more than suffice. Unless you add some predatory fish that is super messy.

Random note that probably sounds weird, but check out zoas in person first. Fell in love with zoas myself through macro shots. I still love them, but if I bought some online based on those pics, I'd have been unpleasantly surprised. They are small polyps haha.
 
Last edited:
I helped a friend of mine get into the saltwater hobby (he had a lot of experience in fresh water) in under $150.

40 breeder tank = $40
RO water from walmart = $20
Sand = $25
Rock 10 lbs = $20
Heater = $ 20
1 Powehead = $10

Not to mention, he got some fish and corals later on. That's it. Testing at a near by LFS.

Now after a while you do need to buy your own RODI unit, refractometer, testing kit etc.

Simple.
 
ssky said:
I helped a friend of mine get into the saltwater hobby (he had a lot of experience in fresh water) in under $150.

40 breeder tank = $40
RO water from walmart = $20
Sand = $25
Rock 10 lbs = $20
Heater = $ 20
1 Powehead = $10

Not to mention, he got some fish and corals later on. That's it. Testing at a near by LFS.

Now after a while you do need to buy your own RODI unit, refractometer, testing kit etc.

Simple.
Click to expand...

I wish things were that cheap around here.
 
sde1500 said:
I mean, those are pretty standard prices. He skipped the cost of the light obviously, which is typically the most expensive part.
Click to expand...

40 gallon tank around here is 130-150$ new, used maybe 60-80$.

Water is pretty close.

Sand is probably a fair bit more if you get 'branded' sand that is nice. 80$ for a 40lb bag of caribsea aragonite.

Rock is between 5-6$ a lb dead, 9$ lb live where I am, locally. Shipping makes it much more from online. So 10lbs is between 50-90$

Heater would be close.

Powerhead is probably cheapest 30$ that I'm aware of. :P

Woo Canada, in the boonies!
 
Rover88 said:
40 gallon tank around here is 130-150$ new, used maybe 60-80$.

Water is pretty close.

Sand is probably a fair bit more if you get 'branded' sand that is nice. 80$ for a 40lb bag of caribsea aragonite.

Rock is between 5-6$ a lb dead, 9$ lb live where I am, locally. Shipping makes it much more from online. So 10lbs is between 50-90$

Heater would be close.

Powerhead is probably cheapest 30$ that I'm aware of. [emoji14]

Woo Canada, in the boonies!
Click to expand...
Yes sorry did not include the light. Bought mars aqua for 95 bucks.

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk
 
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