floor reinforcement?

i put a floor jack underneath one end of my tank, the other end is on the wall that is next to the foundation. I wasn't to worriend about it holding realy, but made the fiance and everyone else feel better about it :) the house was built in the 30's i think and the tank spans across about 4 or 5 joists, its a 125. and i have a 55 sump underneath it, so I think the extra support could help
 
There are building codes which establish "minimum requirements" then there are whats is called engineering codes of standards. These standards are seldom written as they are a product of experience or wisdom. kcress is obviously sharing expereiences as an engineer that go beyong minimum standards. Many Engineer's get sued for negligence for not using acceptable engineering standrards of care. Any before construction known large loads that will be imposed on a structure are nearly always adjusted for prior to constructionn by a design engineers or a reputable contractor after consulting an engineer. Large aquariums (100 gallons or more) are large loads. If you notice even bathtubs and kitchen appliances are placed directly over supports or over load bearing walls and perpendicular to the joists.

I know for a fact each of my 120 gallon display tanks with all its accesssories etc weigh in at over 2400 pounds. That also includes ATO tank, auto water top off tank etc, their pumps etc. A deep sand bed in a 120 gallon tank is at least 400 pounds of sand.

I am big, 300 lbs, and i would not want to put in abour 12 sqaure feet 8 of me long term anywhere in any wood framed house without fore planning.
 
Yep yep...

Just laying on my back under the crawl space and seeing a person walk by is enough of a lesson for me to start shoring things. LOL
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14804600#post14804600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Another thing to think about is the tank itself. Without bracing under the floor, it will wiggle, bounce, wobble, twist, shake and so on as people walk by. The more the floor gives the more undo stress is put on the tank and could eventually lead to issues with the seams of your tank or even stress fractures in the glass or acrylic.



Here's a good example of what a floor that gives can do to a tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1616664&highlight=cracked

That is probably worth repeating.


I reinforced the floor under my tank so that it would not deflect when someone was walking around the tank. I used LVL's sistered to my two existing joists that run parallel to my tank.
 
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Question: is there a way to tell which way the joists holding up the floor are going without looking from underneath? (i don't have access to the entire house I rent.) Thanks.

Edit: my tank is not going to be very heavy (probably 50-70 gallons w/ a 40 gallon sump) but the house is very old and my bookshelves move quite a bit when I walk by them. I'm concerned about the tank cracking from the movement and want to cut down on that as much as possible.
 
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Every time this comes up I feel I should be ripping up my living room floor to check the joists while the tanks still dry. Had a 2 week water test and the floor doesnt even creak when you fill the tank.

It (150g)runs perpendicular to the joists (raised floor) and spans 4 of them due to oversized stand. I also took the decision to bolt the whole stand to the load bearing wall in a number of places. Every little helps. I'm lucky that my sump is on the concrete floor outside however.

I'm actually more concerned with my bungalow dubious ceiling falling in on the tank than it falling through the floor.
 
Regarding checking which way they run.

Find the load bearing walls. The joists run between these.

Failing that check near a power socket or radiator pipe. There is normally a half sawn floorboard nearby (access) pry it up with a screwdriver and have a look inside :). Then bat it back down with a hammer. -> This wont work if you have laminate/carpet tho :p
 
Alright, I will try to help out the best I can on this.

My father is a home builder, has been for almost 30 years now. I have been helping in the construction of new homes since I was 4, so I have been in the industry for a long time too. Over the past 7 years or so, I have been studying the more technical aspects of home building since my brother and I are interested in the real estate markets around here. So I do know about the load a house can handle.

Bottom line is, if your house is UP TO CODES and was built after, well probably the 70's. You can guarantee the live load of your floor will handle 10,000 pounds before structural integrity begins to compromise. The only thing I can think of to make the live load larger would be to replace floor joist with steel ones or pour a concrete floor. Both of these can handle substantially larger loads that would be difficult to challenge. BUT you MUST consider EVERYTHING on the floor in the room you with to place a large tank in. Furniture, pianos, bookcases, kitchen cabinets, ding room tables, etc. all of these things add up big time. usually floors have about 3000 pounds of stuff put on top of them, from what I have experienced, so a tank up to about 600 gallons would be safe on the first floor of any newer home. This tank would need to be long so it could span across several joist and be placed up against a load bearing wall, if you cannot tell which one that is, then place it against a central wall that runs to the roof of the entire house, ie through the second floor, or along an exterior wall, either the front or back of the house.

Why can't i place my 600 gallon tank along a side exterior wall? Because it would fall through the floor. Joist in a house are run from front to back on the first floor and side to side on the second. So placing a large tank on a side exterior wall would stress only one joist whereas placing the tank on either the front or back exterior walls will stretch the load amongst several joist and thus reduce the load and strengthen the support.

Why against a load bearing wall? Because a load bearing wall is not supported by the floor, instead the floor is supported by it. If you go under your house or in your basement, take a look at everything. You will notice cinder block pillars below certain spots of the floor, these are supports for central load bearing walls. The columns can take an immense load as well as the rest of your foundation. Typically any wall resting directly on the foundation is considered load bearing, though there are some other instances where this is not true. Non load bearing or false walls are simply in place for looks or as room dividers and nothing more. Placing a tank against one of these is like placing a dump truck in the middle of your living room, it gets ugly.

Which brings my next point DO NOT PLACE A LARGE TANK IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROOM! The center of the floors are typically unsupported, which means placing the same tank from a wall to the middle of the room could mean compromising your structure. thankfully newer building codes are causing pillars to be placed in the middle of large floors, but they are different from CITY to CITY, so your house might be able to handle the tank, and a similar house 10 miles away in the next city could not.

If you already have a large tank in a place that is not properly supported or if you are worried, there are warning signs to look for. The first thing you might notice is a bounce in the floor when you walk by. This means your structure is compromising, not quite compromised. This could also be due to termite or other pest damage, water damage, but if these problems are not apparent then it is probably your tank. A depression in the floor be it carpet or wood is caused by the tank, bu is no reason to worry about your structure, this just means you need better flooring next time. A sag in the wall, cracks in the ceiling, sudden leaks in the roof, and foundation cracks all mean the load in the home is not being distributed correctly. This doesn't mean to evacuate, your house shouldn't collapse suddenly, just means call an engineer and a trusted contractor, and probably your bank. These repairs can be very expensive. If you have a lot of people over lets say, 20 people at 100 pounds each, and you notice some floor bounce, do not panic. This weight is distributed entirely differently and should not cause problems, but you should make sure everyone doesn't get into a small group and start jumping up and down simultaneously.

I highly suggest if you plan on placing a large tank i.e. above 200 gallons on any floor of a house made with wood to have a STRUCTURAL ENGINEER come and inspect the floor, foundation, and load of the house and to take their advice seriously. It will be the best 100 bucks you ever spent. IF you plan on putting a tank on a second or higher floor of a house that is more thank 60 gallons, get an engineer, not a home inspector, not a codes inspector, not a contractor, AN ENGINEER. These guys come armed to the teeth with logarithms and calculus equations that are just beyond our level of expertise. Besides that you aren't paying these guys to do the work, so engineers will give an honest opinion, not a sells pitch. Home inspectors are worthless, I am sorry, but I have yet to meet one who wasn't full of poo.

sorry for the long post, but this should be enough information to answer everyone's question, I will be watching the thread so anymore and I will be glad to answer the best I can.
 
Even a Civil Engineer straight out of college could handle the task easily if the tank size was reasonable, say 250 gallons or smaller. All accredited college civil engineering programs have structural engineering incorporated into their programs and these smaller tank loads are simply solvedby civil engineers. The only real problems would arise at the final support footings, meaning can a simple set of posts (lally or lolly columns) with a beam on top be used that is supported by a concrete slab basement floor for extra support, or must the load span to footings far spaced meaning a need for doubling up floor joists. Engineers are not inexpensive and a $100 bill for a house call would be a good deal. Probably take some talking to get a structural engineer to make a house call for $100 though.

For really large tanks (over 250 gallons) an experienced structural engineer could save many problems down the road. There are many tanks out there sitting on grossly over built tank stands that are setting on inadequate supported flooring. For an example, one almost always need extra bracing between TGI floor joists when they support large loads as they (TGI floors)typically bounce with just common live loads such as a walking person. Plus remember a closely grouped tank system is just as hard to adequately support as a large tank by itself.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14832138#post14832138 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman

There are many tanks out there sitting on grossly over built tank stands that are setting on inadequate supported flooring.

As a matter of fact, the stand is actually just adding another 200 pounds to the dead load of the tank :)
 
Why can't i place my 600 gallon tank along a side exterior wall? Because it would fall through the floor. Joist in a house are run from front to back on the first floor and side to side on the second. So placing a large tank on a side exterior wall would stress only one joist whereas placing the tank on either the front or back exterior walls will stretch the load amongst several joist and thus reduce the load and strengthen the support.

Wrong, the floor joists are run however the PLANS were drawn up, and even that can change as to whoever built the house. I know because I have changed them in the past and as long as the changes are approved by the County Building or Code Inspector then you can basicly do what you wish.
I blocked my floor joists for my 210 AGA system, because of the weight, it was overkill but what the hey, I can always sleep good at night. Sold the tank though.
 
If the ceiling below the floor is sheetrock then you can get a small nail and start at the side of the room and measure away from the wall 10 3/4 inches and use a small nail and push it through the sheetrock ceiling and see if you feel a floorjoist. If you do not then try the other wall and see if they are running the other way. Almost all 2 nd story homes should have 2x10 floor joists and they should be 12in on center. Find your floorjoists and know.

2 nice decorative columns that have a header connecting them would take the weight and then remember to brace up under where the columns sit also.
 
I have built many a house and the home construction is as only good as your builder and then that is relying that your building inspector is doing their job and checking your builder!!!
 
I had the same concern when I upgraded to a larger tank.
Got simple floor jacks at Home Depot and added them to the one's I put in years ago.


jacks1.jpg

jacks2.jpg
 
When I built my 520 gallon tank with a 250 gallon sump, I assumed it would be fine because I was going to set it on a 4" concrete floor. However I found out it was not rated for that weight. I had to jackhammer out the slab, dig three piers down to undisturbed soil, and pour a 10" thick slab on top of them.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14839387#post14839387 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KH971
If the ceiling below the floor is sheetrock then you can get a small nail and start at the side of the room and measure away from the wall 10 3/4 inches and use a small nail and push it through the sheetrock ceiling and see if you feel a floorjoist. If you do not then try the other wall and see if they are running the other way. Almost all 2 nd story homes should have 2x10 floor joists and they should be 12in on center. Find your floorjoists and know.

2 nice decorative columns that have a header connecting them would take the weight and then remember to brace up under where the columns sit also.
There are electronic studfinders that do this without poking nail holes in your sheetrock and wiring. They are easy to find for well under $50 though you can always find fancy multifunction ones for more.

Not all second stories have 2 by 10 floor joists on 12 in centers. Depending on span and local code, you may find 2 by 6's on 16" centers.

You could also build a brick walled closet matching your tank under it.
 
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