Flow Through DSB
- Thread starter bioload
- Start date
Bioload you are over thinking it. This is not an accusation, I am guilty as well of such things, but to answer your question all you have to do is plumb in a DSB bucket. Your fish will eat and generate waste. The bacteria on your rock will break down the ammonia and nitrite, nitrate will rise. Eventually your bucket bacteria will catch up and nitrate will fall. But to test if the bucket is really the thing removing your nitrate, remove the bucket from the system. That will show the positive or null effects of RDSB on nitrate control.
I am chasing a similar goal of using no mechanical filtration. No skimmer, no reactors just a single return pump. No substrate in the tank, no live rock, no macro algae, no water changes... Just plain sand. I will find the carrying capacity of my RDSB then increase its capacity if I still have not yet stocked the tank completely. I attend the Church of Keeping it Simple, I wish more people would as well.
I am chasing a similar goal of using no mechanical filtration. No skimmer, no reactors just a single return pump. No substrate in the tank, no live rock, no macro algae, no water changes... Just plain sand. I will find the carrying capacity of my RDSB then increase its capacity if I still have not yet stocked the tank completely. I attend the Church of Keeping it Simple, I wish more people would as well.
S.A. Trev
New member
Amen brutha I agree with you I live by the moto that the hight of sofistication is simplicity................but dude IMO doing that with out good and lots of LR ans water changes is really pushing the limits
Allmost
New member
agreed, but its more fun to try different things, Zeo was a whole new chapter for me for example
.also, check your minerals, trace elements and ... if no water changes, my old 30 G, I went for 9 months with no water changed just LR, sand, and a DSB in a bucket. everything was good, then I upgraded so I can keep a couple of tangs. and more corals of course
bioload
Having moments of clarity
Bio-load- It looks like you have a denitrification filter based on the same principles as the coil denitrator from your diagram. - Principles appear to similar to that of a coil. The surface area however I would guess is significantly greater than that of a coil making me think a DSB would be more efficient....would you agree?
Allmost is right in that this isn't the best replica of a DSB to use as a research model. - This was the easiest way I could think of getting a sample from within the bed to test for NNR. If I were to set up a "œDSB in a bucket" type of design I would only be able to take a sample of the tank water which may not give a good indication if it is truly the DSB that is having the overall effect. If the DSB is having a NNR effect I should see that the sample withdrawn from the bed.
I think we can all agree that there is flow within the sand to some extent since many have witnessed a nitrate reduction in their tanks after adding a DSB indicating an exchange of water between the bed and the display. By using a very slow flow (1 drop/sec) to start I'm hoping that all the water introduced to the DSB will have time to interact and the net result measured.
I've completed the set up and will post some pics later. Is there another design that you would suggest for the test before I get started on this one. I have a second 5 gallon tank that I can use to set up a second model.
I would suggest getting away from DSB's while you still can. Most people that use DSB's can't even tell you why they work! - LOL.....just too curious.
There are solid, proven methods for nitrate reduction. Even if you have to pull out the old Plenum system. Or better yet, experiment with vodka dosing. You stand a much better chance of successfully battling nitrates, and being happier with your tank this way. "“ Sweet.....more things to try. How about injecting vodka directly into the DSB...That would make for some happy bacteria. Agreed, I could implement a blue chip method and sit back and enjoy, but where's the fun in that. Plus my son's wouldn't have these neat science projects for school.
Bioload you are over thinking it. This is not an accusation, I am guilty as well of such things, - It would seem many of us in this hobby suffer from this as well.....better exercise than Sudoku.
but to answer your question all you have to do is plumb in a DSB bucket........remove the bucket from the system. That will show the positive or null effects of RDSB on nitrate control. "“ how long would you estimate the process taking. I've heard mixed results of a few weeks "“ a few months?
I am chasing a similar goal of using no mechanical filtration. "“ see.....I told you it's better than Sudoku. Keep me posted....link please. Need to subscribe to your church. Remember "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Allmost is right in that this isn't the best replica of a DSB to use as a research model. - This was the easiest way I could think of getting a sample from within the bed to test for NNR. If I were to set up a "œDSB in a bucket" type of design I would only be able to take a sample of the tank water which may not give a good indication if it is truly the DSB that is having the overall effect. If the DSB is having a NNR effect I should see that the sample withdrawn from the bed.
I think we can all agree that there is flow within the sand to some extent since many have witnessed a nitrate reduction in their tanks after adding a DSB indicating an exchange of water between the bed and the display. By using a very slow flow (1 drop/sec) to start I'm hoping that all the water introduced to the DSB will have time to interact and the net result measured.
I've completed the set up and will post some pics later. Is there another design that you would suggest for the test before I get started on this one. I have a second 5 gallon tank that I can use to set up a second model.
I would suggest getting away from DSB's while you still can. Most people that use DSB's can't even tell you why they work! - LOL.....just too curious.
There are solid, proven methods for nitrate reduction. Even if you have to pull out the old Plenum system. Or better yet, experiment with vodka dosing. You stand a much better chance of successfully battling nitrates, and being happier with your tank this way. "“ Sweet.....more things to try. How about injecting vodka directly into the DSB...That would make for some happy bacteria. Agreed, I could implement a blue chip method and sit back and enjoy, but where's the fun in that. Plus my son's wouldn't have these neat science projects for school.
Bioload you are over thinking it. This is not an accusation, I am guilty as well of such things, - It would seem many of us in this hobby suffer from this as well.....better exercise than Sudoku.
but to answer your question all you have to do is plumb in a DSB bucket........remove the bucket from the system. That will show the positive or null effects of RDSB on nitrate control. "“ how long would you estimate the process taking. I've heard mixed results of a few weeks "“ a few months?
I am chasing a similar goal of using no mechanical filtration. "“ see.....I told you it's better than Sudoku. Keep me posted....link please. Need to subscribe to your church. Remember "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Allmost
New member
again : you can not test to see if a whopper can fill you up if you order KFC chicken
you are not setting up a DSB, you are setting up a sulfur denitrator, only difference is that you will ruin ure tanks PH, and will build up more no3.
the Idea of DSB is to have HIGH flow on top.
anyways, have fun with your experiment, but please consider changing its name, many ppl search on google and come across this, and would get the wrong Idea !
this is not DSB !
you are not setting up a DSB, you are setting up a sulfur denitrator, only difference is that you will ruin ure tanks PH, and will build up more no3.
the Idea of DSB is to have HIGH flow on top.
anyways, have fun with your experiment, but please consider changing its name, many ppl search on google and come across this, and would get the wrong Idea !
this is not DSB !
TheFishMan65
New member
bioload, are you going to have a fast flow over the top? If so then I think I would disagree with Allmost. The only difference is that you are sampling a drop a second. That could be nor worse than a bed in a fuge with a poor seal on the baffles.
If not would you be interested in changing your design? I would love to know the results.
If not would you be interested in changing your design?
I would love to know the results.
Allmost
New member
bioload, are you going to have a fast flow over the top? If so then I think I would disagree with Allmost. The only difference is that you are sampling a drop a second. That could be nor worse than a bed in a fuge with a poor seal on the baffles.
If not would you be interested in changing your design?
think about it for a min
if high flow on top, then the bucket would overflow
so one drop on top = one drop at bottom
now bioload, you got me thinking lol, I will think to see if I can come up with some way to test it. the simplest way, would be to set up a RDSB in a bucket, if your no3 is 100PPM, I will bet you in 2-3 weeks (less than a month) you will see it drop to half that value. (I see it happen alot), then you can remove the RDSB, and see how fast your no3 would rise. so if you are at 50PPM then reomve the RDSB, and 2 days later you are on 100PPM again, then the RDSB was removing 25 PPM of no3 daily from your tank.
but that's gonna shock everyone, so I will think about another way to test this trully, I KNOW DSBs work, and I like what you are doing
we do need a reasoning and some data for this to show others.TheFishMan65
New member
Allmost not sure I follow "on drop on top = on drop on bottom". I assumed bio load would add an outlet so the bucket would not over flow. Basically I am saying build a DSB in a bucket. Then add a tap at the bottom for his 1 drop per second. I would think this loss of a drop would not affect behavior of the DSB enough to affect any measurements. Especially if the DSB is deep enough to clear be in the non oxygen range (anerobic? - always get mixed so lets not confuse anyone too much) where the drop is coming from.
bioload
Having moments of clarity
think about it for a min
if high flow on top, then the bucket would overflow
so one drop on top = one drop at bottom
now bioload, you got me thinking lol, I will think to see if I can come up with some way to test it. the simplest way, would be to set up a RDSB in a bucket, if your no3 is 100PPM, I will bet you in 2-3 weeks (less than a month) you will see it drop to half that value. (I see it happen alot), then you can remove the RDSB, and see how fast your no3 would rise. so if you are at 50PPM then reomve the RDSB, and 2 days later you are on 100PPM again, then the RDSB was removing 25 PPM of no3 daily from your tank.
but that's gonna shock everyone, so I will think about another way to test this trully, I KNOW DSBs work, and I like what you are doing
What you're saying makes sense....and making be hungry as well. There are a few other questions that I would like answered with this approach so please bear with me for a couple weeks so we can get some results in....after all I've already drilled the 5 gallon tank.
bioload
Having moments of clarity
This I think we can do. I have a second 5 gallon tank that I can plumb to overflow in addition to taking a sample from within the bed, but need to find the parts. Problem is I have to explain to my kids that I'm taking their other tank.....oh well that frog needed to be set free....flow through vs. flow over
Allmost
New member
it could work this way
the way he drew the first diagram, there were no openings, so it was that drop one drop on top, and get one drop at the bottom, which means pushing 100% of water through. ...
your way make more sense, have a small rigid tube at the bottom, so it drops one drop per sec lets say and have high flow on top, with a input and a output.
anyways, that's the only point I wanted to make, bioload
bioload
Having moments of clarity
the way he drew the first diagram, there were no openings, so it was that drop one drop on top, and get one drop at the bottom, which means pushing 100% of water through. ...
Considerations
Not the "œtypical" DSB design
100% of the water through the DSB may help to ensure 100% contact
Whatever accumulates in the DSB may transfer to the tank at a higher rate
Possible increase in NNR rate due to the above
Flow rate may not be sufficient if NNR occurs resulting in insufficient nitrate (post GFO/aeration?)
your way make more sense, have a small rigid tube at the bottom, so it drops one drop per sec lets say and have high flow on top, with a input and a output.
Considerations
More representative of a "œtypical" DSB
High flow may be counterproductive in close proximity to the DSB with regards to dissolved oxygen
100% contact may not be achieved relying only on the natural diffusion from high to low concentration
Increase flow over the DSB should provide a steady source of nitrate
Potential "œnasties" accumulation might transfer to the tank at a slower rate (if at all)
With all these things to consider I might only try one for now......Pls advise...any other considerations?
Considerations
Not the "œtypical" DSB design
100% of the water through the DSB may help to ensure 100% contact
Whatever accumulates in the DSB may transfer to the tank at a higher rate
Possible increase in NNR rate due to the above
Flow rate may not be sufficient if NNR occurs resulting in insufficient nitrate (post GFO/aeration?)
your way make more sense, have a small rigid tube at the bottom, so it drops one drop per sec lets say and have high flow on top, with a input and a output.
Considerations
More representative of a "œtypical" DSB
High flow may be counterproductive in close proximity to the DSB with regards to dissolved oxygen
100% contact may not be achieved relying only on the natural diffusion from high to low concentration
Increase flow over the DSB should provide a steady source of nitrate
Potential "œnasties" accumulation might transfer to the tank at a slower rate (if at all)
With all these things to consider I might only try one for now......Pls advise...any other considerations?
TheFishMan65
New member
I would vote closer to the DSB for several reasons.
1) That is what the thread title deals with
2) I think there is more knowledge about "sulfur denitrators"
3) I am more curious as it seems simpler for a person to implement (IIRC drip rate is critical in a sulfur denitrator)
But I would only try one too.
1) That is what the thread title deals with
2) I think there is more knowledge about "sulfur denitrators"
3) I am more curious as it seems simpler for a person to implement (IIRC drip rate is critical in a sulfur denitrator)
But I would only try one too.
More oxygen in the top levels of the DSB will only drive denitrification deeper into the sediments. It is not optimal to have denitrification occurring in oxygen depleted sediment, it is more favorable to have it in low oxygen environments. This is why the depth of the sand bed, and the overlying flow are key factors in designing an optimized and highly functional DSB.
Aquarist007
New member
You really can tell if your system nitrates and phosphates are being reduced. If you have no algae then you have no phosphates or nitrates.
In the overall picture of reducing nitrates
live rock comes first in effeciency
then cheato macro algae
finally a dsb.
I think it is a very good idea to run a dsb remotely but I would also add cheato to the refugium.
In my one refugium on the left I had only a dsb and live rock. About a month ago I put a small ball from the other refugium into it. It is growing tremendously and I have harvesting a ton of it weekly
but------the algae on the glass of the display tank is almost non existant now
In the overall picture of reducing nitrates
live rock comes first in effeciency
then cheato macro algae
finally a dsb.
I think it is a very good idea to run a dsb remotely but I would also add cheato to the refugium.
In my one refugium on the left I had only a dsb and live rock. About a month ago I put a small ball from the other refugium into it. It is growing tremendously and I have harvesting a ton of it weekly
but------the algae on the glass of the display tank is almost non existant now
Aquarist007
New member
this is a great list --I'll add it to the Capn's Log thread with credit to you
You might want to read some of PaulB's threads on RUGF and why deep sand beds fail.
I'll see if I can find the links for you
With your sand getting absolutely zero flow I can see how a DSB would rank last in your list. I really wouldn't even call it a DSB as in context of the OPs discussion, it's a refugium with a lot of sand on the bottom. I would guess that even a bucket DSB has more denitrifying power than your system's sand bed does. The fact that you have algae growth shows that you have excess nutrients (nitrate) that are not being removed by the bacteria filtration alone. I am not saying your system doesn't work, it obviously does, but as I said it is not in context of the OPs experiment of how effectively a functioning DSB removes nitrate....
finally a dsb....
Aquarist007
New member
That would be true if you believed it was the flow of water that was important with a dsb---I don't.
I side with the other group that believe nitrates and phosphates are carried to the lower anerobic and anoxic areas by the organisms etc that live in the sand bed. This is supported by the work of Calfo, Fenner, Schemick etc
I have algae growth in the refugiums but I believe that is the most desirable and controllable place to have it.
I have 16 fish---4 of them tangs- in my system so I am probably the biggest importer of nitrates and phosphates into my system through feeding them.
Some of the algae on the glass could be photosynthetic plankton which I believe are very health to the system as they feed the copopods which in term feed my corals
I don't see any algae in my display tank
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