for those who claim to truly care... ;-p

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If the rest of the world would just adopt the same water and air pollution standards the U.S. has to play by it would be a good start in curbing at least a few environmental problems.

Well ... our reefs are threatened mainly by ocean acidification and rising temperatures. What drives global warming and acidification? Carbon dioxide emissions from fossile fuels.

What country is at the absolute top of emissions per capita? North america, with about 20 tons of CO2-eq each year compared to the world average of 4 tons.

So with a little bit of luck the rest of the world will not follow in your footsteps.
 
Well ... our reefs are threatened mainly by ocean acidification and rising temperatures. What drives global warming and acidification? Carbon dioxide emissions from fossile fuels.

What country is at the absolute top of emissions per capita? North america, with about 20 tons of CO2-eq each year compared to the world average of 4 tons.

So with a little bit of luck the rest of the world will not follow in your footsteps.

Thats not the entire story, We have the tightest emission laws anywhere. Most cars on the road in other countries cant even be imported here in part due to the fact they wont meet the federal emissions standards. I wont start on the differences between us and the rest of the world regarding whats discharged into waterways and out of industrial smoke stacks. The rest of the world is very lax compared to the U.S when it comes to pollution standards and enforcemnt of such.They have made us out to be the bad guy in all this when tail pipe for tail pipe/smoke stack per smoke stack our emissions are cleaner then nearly anyone.
 
Well ... our reefs are threatened mainly by ocean acidification and rising temperatures. What drives global warming and acidification? Carbon dioxide emissions from fossile fuels.

What country is at the absolute top of emissions per capita? North america, with about 20 tons of CO2-eq each year compared to the world average of 4 tons.

So with a little bit of luck the rest of the world will not follow in your footsteps.

According to these sources, and several others, your numbers are very far off. This is a European source so I doubt there is a positive US bias. As of 2011 China produces almost double the total CO2 as the US and the US is not the highest per capita producer.

Total production

Per Capita
 
Yes, to be totally honest the figures i found was 10 years old. The US is still top 10 per capita tho.

As a swede it is my god given right, no my duty!, to adopt a holier then thou attitude ;)
 
Just to play Devil's advocate....
You do understand that the electricity to power those electric trains and street cars is still going to be produced by burning fossil fuels, right?

Two things here:

1. Public transportation is a lot more efficient, in terms of energy consumption per person-mile, than people driving personal cars as individuals. (Carpools, if the car is full, can come close, but most people don't do this.) While the energy for it does have to come from somewhere, the total consumption is significantly less.

2. It's a lot easier to displace some of that electricity consumption (as capabilities for generating from renewable sources improve, and costs of fossil-fuel sources go up) to non-fossil-fuel sources, than it is to do the same for individuals owning their own cars. Electricity has the advantage that users don't need to know exactly where or how it's produced. The end product is the same.

For the person that goes to work at 4AM: You're an outlier. The vast majority of people don't work hours like that and could take advantage of good public transit systems, if such were available in their locals - e.g. most of the country's large and medium-sized cities. You would still consume fossil fuels, but if the folk that live in or in a suburb of a large or medium sized city (500K people and up in the metropolitan area), and who work normal business hours (or the standard first/second/third shifts) switched to mass transit the total consumption of fossil fuels would plummet. Personal cars are around 40% of that consumption.

BTW - I drive an '03 Honda Insight to work, a car that has averaged >50mpg for the 125,000 miles I've put on it so far, and don't have public transit as an option. I used to live in a suburb of a city with decent public transit and I used it every day even though I owned a quite nice car. (I DO know what I'm talking about in terms of the compromises one has to make, as well as the advantages, and would happily do it again. I've also visited Amsterdam a dozen or so times for work, and have never once taken a cab or rented a car while there - the public transit is REALLY good.)
 
if getting rid of your car, or stopping driving using combustion engines of any kind, was the only way to save reefs worldwide. would you be willing to do it ?

Wouldn't a better question be...would you get rid of your tank, if that was the only way to save the reefs?
 
Two things here:

1. Public transportation is a lot more efficient, in terms of energy consumption per person-mile, than people driving personal cars as individuals. (Carpools, if the car is full, can come close, but most people don't do this.) While the energy for it does have to come from somewhere, the total consumption is significantly less.

2. It's a lot easier to displace some of that electricity consumption (as capabilities for generating from renewable sources improve, and costs of fossil-fuel sources go up) to non-fossil-fuel sources, than it is to do the same for individuals owning their own cars. Electricity has the advantage that users don't need to know exactly where or how it's produced. The end product is the same.

For the person that goes to work at 4AM: You're an outlier. The vast majority of people don't work hours like that and could take advantage of good public transit systems, if such were available in their locals - e.g. most of the country's large and medium-sized cities. You would still consume fossil fuels, but if the folk that live in or in a suburb of a large or medium sized city (500K people and up in the metropolitan area), and who work normal business hours (or the standard first/second/third shifts) switched to mass transit the total consumption of fossil fuels would plummet. Personal cars are around 40% of that consumption.

BTW - I drive an '03 Honda Insight to work, a car that has averaged >50mpg for the 125,000 miles I've put on it so far, and don't have public transit as an option. I used to live in a suburb of a city with decent public transit and I used it every day even though I owned a quite nice car. (I DO know what I'm talking about in terms of the compromises one has to make, as well as the advantages, and would happily do it again. I've also visited Amsterdam a dozen or so times for work, and have never once taken a cab or rented a car while there - the public transit is REALLY good.)
For what its work, I live in Seattle(e.g. most of the country's large and medium-sized cities) a few blocks from community center (a suburb of a large or medium sized city). I work a few blocks from the airport (a suburb of a large or medium sized city). I work "normal" hours, and it is about a 5 mile trip to work for me (woohoo, lucky me :). To take public transportation to work, it would require me to make 3 transfers, making total travel time about an hour and a half, and it would get me within about a 1/4 mile of work. This is a similar scenario for many of my coworkers also. It totally negates the efficiency savings you noted. I totally agree on your second point of being able to change out an energy source at a central point.
They hype the crap out of public transportation here. This is why it can't work. The routes cannot cover well, and even when they do, its still going to be prohibitively inconvenient in some areas.
I do take the bus or use the park and ride when I go to "mass" activities, such as baseball/football games, or downtown... their are gains to be made with it... but it isn't a replacement, it can't be. Its a supplement.
 
Wouldn't a better question be...would you get rid of your tank, if that was the only way to save the reefs?


it's a different question, not necessarily a better one ;)

for reasons entirely not connected to any 'issue', i haven't had a tank since '10, heh.

but to your question

not only would i give up any or all tanks if it was 'either or', (in a heartbeat) i won't be rushing back into the hobby, if i'm when/if physically able, for the very reason of a tank's carbon footprint, and its effects on the environment. (well, mebbe a 20 nano, now that led's are about where they need to be ;) )
 
i haven't owned or driven a car since around '00 :D

You don't live in the middle of nowhere Wyoming do you? ;)


My answer is no, since I have a tank already, no to the second question too.
 
Thats not the entire story, We have the tightest emission laws anywhere. Most cars on the road in other countries cant even be imported here in part due to the fact they wont meet the federal emissions standards. I wont start on the differences between us and the rest of the world regarding whats discharged into waterways and out of industrial smoke stacks. The rest of the world is very lax compared to the U.S when it comes to pollution standards and enforcemnt of such.They have made us out to be the bad guy in all this when tail pipe for tail pipe/smoke stack per smoke stack our emissions are cleaner then nearly anyone.

You'll have to count out western Europe from the rest of the world for that to be true.
 
You'll have to count out western Europe from the rest of the world for that to be true.

Ok, Aside from the country of Western Europe, The U.S. has some of the tightest emissions and enforcement policies you will find anywhere.:wavehand: I think you are missing the point. Lots of people like to make the U.S. out be the bad in the global pollution problem when in fact we have made huge strides in curbing ALL forms of pollution in the past 25 or so years.

I dont know of any country that has reclaimed more land, cleaned up more smokestacks, cut auto more emissions or cleaned up more polluted waterways then the U.S. Is it as good as it can be? No, but its still ongoing. Im sure other places have done similar work. I am also sure some countries are still turning a blind eye to environmental destruction or degradation over that of profit.
 
Screw that nonsense we didnt evolve 6 million years to revert back to living like rats in a cave. The problem is overpopulation.
 
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I believe a recent study showed that the world's cows create more greenhouses gases per year than all other forms of transportation combined. So, I'll give up beef before I give up my car. :)
 
Screw that nonsense we didnt evolve 6 million years to revert back to living like rats in a cave. The problem is overpopulation.

Many people would agree with this. So, let's take it on face value: The problem, we have determined, is overpopulation.

Now what?

Kill half the population? Impose birth restrictions? Enforced sterilization? On everyone, or just a few? How is this handled Internationally? And, of course, what, exactly, is the correct population?
 
I think the conversation we need to be having is what do to when we consume all the world's carbon based energy sources. How do we offset this impact?

All nations will continue to utilize the cheapest available sources of energy, despite the negative externalities. Energy is the currency for complex societies. Unless we decide to live in the stone ages and pump water from a well with a hand pump, we need to prepare for a world where every last drop of oil is consumed. Whilst this may sound pessimistic, I think it is the inevitable scenario barring some major technological advance in energy, i.e. Fusion.

-Mark
 
Many people would agree with this. So, let's take it on face value: The problem, we have determined, is overpopulation.

Now what?

Kill half the population? Impose birth restrictions? Enforced sterilization? On everyone, or just a few? How is this handled Internationally? And, of course, what, exactly, is the correct population?

Those things are already happening due to overpopulation? Ever heard of the ZPG concept? about 20 years ago there was a movement for this. You would see ZPG bumber stickers at the same rate we see Starbucks coffee shops today...everywhere. Zero Population Growth. So many kids already out there put up for adoption that need homes. Poverty is cureable if people would stop breeding like rabbits.

To answer your question. You balance population growth with what the resources can sustain. For example; Indias resources cannot sustain it's population and the side effect is extreme poverty and disease. Reversal, stop reproducing. If people cannot think ahead and limit themselves they deserve the suffering that comes with it. Pretty clear and somewhat humane decision not to reproduce when you already have 7 and they live in squalor and disease. Secondly... Although controversial, base population growth off of nature or emmulate nature. Much more to this theory but nature is in harmony and in balance and is not over populated. If someones quality of life is so bad due to cancer or another terminally ill disease and wants to die let em. Personally I agree with Chinas one child policy. When I lived in Japan, the govt actually paid you when your wife had a kid. They still do.

All too often the truth is what we dont want to hear because its not "the nice thing to say" or not what's politically correct. I dont worry about such things anymore. People say Chinas policy is harsh, what do you think? What would China be like without it?

Every nation that has extreme poverty and disease has one factor in common...
Overpopulation.
 
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Those things are already happening due to overpopulation? Ever heard of the ZPG concept? about 20 years ago there was a movement for this. You would see ZPG bumber stickers at the same rate we see Starbucks coffee shops today...everywhere. Zero Population Growth. So many kids already out there put up for adoption that need homes. Poverty is cureable if people would stop breeding like rabbits.

To answer your question. You balance population growth with what the resources can sustain. For example; Indias resources cannot sustain it's population and the side effect is extreme poverty and disease. Reversal, stop reproducing. If people cannot think ahead and limit themselves they deserve the suffering that comes with it. Pretty clear and somewhat humane decision not to reproduce when you already have 7 and they live in squalor and disease. Secondly... Although controversial, base population growth off of nature or emmulate nature. Much more to this theory but nature is in harmony and in balance and is not over populated. If someones quality of life is so bad due to cancer or another terminally ill disease and wants to die let em. Personally I agree with Chinas one child policy. When I lived in Japan, the govt actually paid you when your wife had a kid. They still do.

All too often the truth is what we dont want to hear because its not "the nice thing to say" or not what's politically correct. I dont worry about such things anymore. People say Chinas policy is harsh, what do you think? What would China be like without it?

Every nation that has extreme poverty and disease has one factor in common...
Overpopulation.

Education is key to overpopulation. More educated individuals have less children, its as simple as that. I think your non-PC comment only has truth in the fact that yes, if you sterilized a population it would solve some of our problems. Here is my non-PC comment: Why don't you nominate you and your family to go first? I don't think its fair to place a variable value on a life, but it is easy to do so when speaking generally about certain regions.

Japan needs more children. Who will be around to pay into the pyramid scheme when they have negative population growth? The vast majority of population growth is in developing nations. Aging populations in developed countries need proportional population growth. These societies will have different issues than those of their developing neighbors, but strife non the less. Almost all of the European states are considered failing societies as population growth by "natives" is considered negative.

China's one child policy has created massive social upheaval. Currently there exists 40 million more males than females in this country...if that is not a spell for disaster I do not know what is. You should check out the Vice series on HBO, these guys do some really cool journalism work.

Taken from CNN's "China's Biggest Problem"

As a result [of one child policy], young men are hair-trigger sensitive to their circumstances, and when the number of men who will never find a mate rises, so does the intensity of the striving. Young men discount their futures and take ridiculous risks in order to improve their prospects. They also become more violent, rising more readily to perceived slights and insults, and starting more fights -- often over trivial issues. These are the triggers for most man-on-man assaults and homicides.

So no, this policy has effectively backfired and it is certainly messing with "nature." Not to mention, you CAN have more than one child. You just have to pay penalties that only the very rich can afford. In my opinion, this policy has led to rampant infanticide and forced abortions simply because the unborn child was female.

-Mark
 
Those things are already happening due to overpopulation?

I don't know if you meant to state this as a question, or if the question mark was a mistake. Anyway, last I checked, the world's population is still increasing, and is expected to increase for about another 2 billion people, if current trends hold, before leveling off. If you agree that the world's population is already too high, then obviously it'll be too high by 2 billion more people. So, whether it's a question or not the answer is: No, it's not.

Ever heard of the ZPG concept? about 20 years ago there was a movement for this. You would see ZPG bumber stickers at the same rate we see Starbucks coffee shops today...everywhere. Zero Population Growth. So many kids already out there put up for adoption that need homes. Poverty is cureable if people would stop breeding like rabbits.

No argument here. That doesn't answer the question of how you'd go about forcing people to have fewer kids. (Obviously, they're continuing to have too many.)

To answer your question. You balance population growth with what the resources can sustain. For example; Indias resources cannot sustain it's population and the side effect is extreme poverty and disease. Reversal, stop reproducing.

No argument here. See above comment though.

If people cannot think ahead and limit themselves they deserve the suffering that comes with it.

That seems to be the current approach, and it's not keeping them from continuing to have too many kids. So obviously, this isn't an approach that works.

Pretty clear and somewhat humane decision not to reproduce when you already have 7 and they live in squalor and disease.

No argument here. And yet, they do.

Secondly... Although controversial, base population growth off of nature or emmulate nature.

Which portion of nature would this be? Many studies have shown that Nature doesn't really have an approach for this that works without a predator/prey relationship. e.g. Rabbits breed like... rabbits. And without a predator keep doing so until they exhaust resources (suffer from the rabbit equivalent of extreme poverty and environmental degradation). Fortunately, foxes eat rabbits. Their population grows until the rabbit population drops, then foxes die off, then the rabbit population booms again, followed by the foxes, etc. It's a continuous cycle (shown several times, also with wolves/moose, and other predator/prey combinations). In the absence of a predator (Deer in most of the eastern US, for example) nature over-populates until resources are exhausted.

I suppose that what you're suggesting here is that we either over-populate until resources are exhausted (e.g. what we're doing now) or create a predator that will be able to effectively prey on us. The latter doesn't seem very likely.

Much more to this theory but nature is in harmony and in balance and is not over populated.

See above. Not true.

If someones quality of life is so bad due to cancer or another terminally ill disease and wants to die let em.

Sure. That happens after they've bred though, and doesn't solve anything.

Personally I agree with Chinas one child policy.

Which was enforced using a variety of techniques including (non-harmful) patriotism, as well as involuntary sterilization (often done to women who were in the hospital for other treatments). Do you also support that approach?

I'd also like to point out that it didn't actually work. China's rate of population increase declined, but the population continue to increase.

When I lived in Japan, the govt actually paid you when your wife had a kid. They still do.

See the previous poster's comments about education. I'd add that, in particular, it's education of women that's important. (Most Western well-educated, well-off countries have declining populations. The US is an exception here.)

How much of your pay are you willing to give up in order to educate the world's billions of uneducated people to the point that they too can become educated and well-off and stop breeding like rabbits? (I'd give some portion of mine, but it'd not be enough. Also, if you follow the news, it should be obvious that there are lots of people in the US that don't support educating our own poor, let alone those of other countries.)

All too often the truth is what we dont want to hear because its not "the nice thing to say" or not what's politically correct. I dont worry about such things anymore. People say Chinas policy is harsh, what do you think? What would China be like without it?

More populous than now. What price are you willing to pay? What price are you willing for your son or daughter to pay?

More to the point: How likely, in a democracy, do you think it is that the people in office would remain there for long if they implemented this approach? (My Answer: One election cycle, at most. Not necessarily because of me - just being pragmatic.) How well has it worked in China? (My Answer: China's population is still growing - something that obviously isn't possible if every woman has just one child. Therefore, it's not.)

Every nation that has extreme poverty and disease has one factor in common...
Overpopulation.

This is tautological. People don't think of a country as "over-populated" unless it is unable to properly food, clothe, and provide jobs for it's population - which means that, by definition, a country is "over-populated" if it has extreme poverty.

One could argue that there are countries that do not have extreme poverty and disease that could also be considered over-populated: some countries in Europe for instance. These don't come to mind because these countries are wealthy enough to handle it (i.e. import resources, such as food, needed to sustain their populations). It doesn't mean there aren't too many people in those countries too.
 
I don't know if you meant to state this as a question, or if the question mark was a mistake. Anyway, last I checked, the world's population is still increasing, and is expected to increase for about another 2 billion people, if current trends hold, before leveling off. If you agree that the world's population is already too high, then obviously it'll be too high by 2 billion more people. So, whether it's a question or not the answer is: No, it's not.



No argument here. That doesn't answer the question of how you'd go about forcing people to have fewer kids. (Obviously, they're continuing to have too many.)



No argument here. See above comment though.



That seems to be the current approach, and it's not keeping them from continuing to have too many kids. So obviously, this isn't an approach that works.



No argument here. And yet, they do.



Which portion of nature would this be? Many studies have shown that Nature doesn't really have an approach for this that works without a predator/prey relationship. e.g. Rabbits breed like... rabbits. And without a predator keep doing so until they exhaust resources (suffer from the rabbit equivalent of extreme poverty and environmental degradation). Fortunately, foxes eat rabbits. Their population grows until the rabbit population drops, then foxes die off, then the rabbit population booms again, followed by the foxes, etc. It's a continuous cycle (shown several times, also with wolves/moose, and other predator/prey combinations). In the absence of a predator (Deer in most of the eastern US, for example) nature over-populates until resources are exhausted.

I suppose that what you're suggesting here is that we either over-populate until resources are exhausted (e.g. what we're doing now) or create a predator that will be able to effectively prey on us. The latter doesn't seem very likely.



See above. Not true.



Sure. That happens after they've bred though, and doesn't solve anything.



Which was enforced using a variety of techniques including (non-harmful) patriotism, as well as involuntary sterilization (often done to women who were in the hospital for other treatments). Do you also support that approach?

I'd also like to point out that it didn't actually work. China's rate of population increase declined, but the population continue to increase.



See the previous poster's comments about education. I'd add that, in particular, it's education of women that's important. (Most Western well-educated, well-off countries have declining populations. The US is an exception here.)

How much of your pay are you willing to give up in order to educate the world's billions of uneducated people to the point that they too can become educated and well-off and stop breeding like rabbits? (I'd give some portion of mine, but it'd not be enough. Also, if you follow the news, it should be obvious that there are lots of people in the US that don't support educating our own poor, let alone those of other countries.)



More populous than now. What price are you willing to pay? What price are you willing for your son or daughter to pay?

More to the point: How likely, in a democracy, do you think it is that the people in office would remain there for long if they implemented this approach? (My Answer: One election cycle, at most. Not necessarily because of me - just being pragmatic.) How well has it worked in China? (My Answer: China's population is still growing - something that obviously isn't possible if every woman has just one child. Therefore, it's not.)



This is tautological. People don't think of a country as "over-populated" unless it is unable to properly food, clothe, and provide jobs for it's population - which means that, by definition, a country is "over-populated" if it has extreme poverty.

One could argue that there are countries that do not have extreme poverty and disease that could also be considered over-populated: some countries in Europe for instance. These don't come to mind because these countries are wealthy enough to handle it (i.e. import resources, such as food, needed to sustain their populations). It doesn't mean there aren't too many people in those countries too.

Thats nice atreis but the problem is still overpopulation and filling an entire page with opinions wont change that... sorry.
 
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