the only problem with aquaculture is there are no large, money-laden facilities that wish to take on aquaculturing the more rare and more difficult fish, like the rarer wrasses and the like. That would take government funding which would be spawned if regulations ever hit that put a major economic burden on the aquarium industry.
Frag Collecting Only
- Thread starter thebanker
- Start date
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
The death of the hobby?! If the collection of corals from all waters was stopped immediately, it would not result in the death of the hobby. I think you need to think again before labeling others as "misguided hobbyists".
samdaman
New member
Idk if you saw the doc. the cove, they offered more pay if they stopped killing dolphins but they refused, they loved their job... just a thought..
noobtothereef
New member
cites allready regulates most coral collections in the world with export quotas, once the quotas are reached they cant export anymore, so basically it makes it pointless for them to collect anymore, if anything collection laws will drive the prices of corals through the roof, i personally know of a few wholesalers that buy the entire quota for the year of a given coral, and then set theyre own price for it since no other distributor can stock it....supply and demand......
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
You don't think that's kind of an obvious given? You're backing up to a much more general statement. This thread is a about a specific aspect of the hobby. You were criticizing a specific idea/person. For you to say that the whole industry is going to crumble if corals can't be collected is just completely wrong. We all make choices as hobbyists that affect the trade.
You're calling the OP misguided because he's thinking it might be nice if we stop plucking corals off the reefs? Seriously? If you'd given your opinion without calling people misguided, I wouldn't have bothered with this. I guess you're all over those clueless folks in the breeding forum with their misguided attempts to destroy the hobby by raising tank bred fish.
You're calling the OP misguided because he's thinking it might be nice if we stop plucking corals off the reefs? Seriously? If you'd given your opinion without calling people misguided, I wouldn't have bothered with this. I guess you're all over those clueless folks in the breeding forum with their misguided attempts to destroy the hobby by raising tank bred fish.
I'm not going to get into this but I will share my piece:
the LFS is always more expensive then a frag from a hobbyist, when I can go to my LFS and look at a dinner plate size of red monti for 140$ and on the same night go to a local guys living room for the same size piece at 25$... I'll take maricultured any day.
the LFS is always more expensive then a frag from a hobbyist, when I can go to my LFS and look at a dinner plate size of red monti for 140$ and on the same night go to a local guys living room for the same size piece at 25$... I'll take maricultured any day.
I am no expert on this subject, but I am just wondering, in comparison, in the USA where I live, what the ratio of wild caught corals sold compared to fraged coral frags from tank raised corals. I look at web sites like Vivid and Atlantis Aquariums and a lot of the other on line web sites that sell SPS corals, they seem to sell, pretty much only the named corals and that most if not all of these corals are fraged off of mother colonies that they have in their tanks. I have also noticed that companies like Liveaquarium seem to sell what I belive are wild not named corals. If we as reefers are buying corals from fraged corals from online vendors or other reefers that have been raised and fraged off of there mother colonies, how many corals are actually being collected in the wild?
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Marie, I won't jump into the debate about whether shutting down wild collection would kill the hobby. However, in calling hobbyists misguided, I think Dave was referring strictly to the idea that reducing or stopping wild coral collection will help save the reef. Almost anyone involved in reef fisheries would probably agree that that is misguided.
The whole idea that we should reduce our reliance on wild collection of corals makes two major assumptions- that 1) collection of corals has a significant impact on the reefs and 2) if there was less demand from the hobby, collectors would collect less. Neither is a realistic assumption.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.
The whole idea that we should reduce our reliance on wild collection of corals makes two major assumptions- that 1) collection of corals has a significant impact on the reefs and 2) if there was less demand from the hobby, collectors would collect less. Neither is a realistic assumption.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.
noobtothereef
New member
stopping wild collection will kill the hobby?? Yeah right.... do you have any idea of how many companies are starting up massive aquaculture operations??? And i mean MASSIVE, in the future it ill be pointless to buy anything wild since the supply of aquacultured will indeed overtake the wild caught's.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
And how often do you run into someone who has an understanding of those things? I've never seen you post anything with a lack of respect for the person you're talking to because they didn't know something.
Here's what I objected to:
Obviously without context it's not untrue, but we were talking about changing the way corals are collected. There's a much nicer way to explain things to someone who is earnestly asking a question and unfamiliar with all the issues. My primary objection was not spurred by his opinion but the condescending delivery of it. There's just no need to tell someone he is misguided and going to kill the hobby. Seems a little extreme to me.
Banker - It is statements like "Although after reading over the responses on this thread I'm starting to think that might be a good idea." That seem very mis guided to me. Putting collectors out of business while entertaining the thought that you are doing so for the benefit of the reefs is misguided. GreenBean had a good post, he seems to understand that a sustainable and well managed coral fishery is to the benefit of the reefs.
If we use your example of Euphyllia parancora the small pieces that come into the trade of parancora are already so small as to be almost of no impact to the reef. There are no large colonies of parancora imported, only small frags. What I am trying to say is that we are already "thinking smaller" when it comes to the size of corals that are being imported. Aquarium corals are really the bits and pieces from the reef. Where we need to think smaller is in the extraction of coral for use in cement production, or building materials in many island nations. Aquarium corals are just bits of coral that are of almost no impact to the reef.
I don't like to see people make the statement that they buy aquacultured or fragged corals in order to "Save the Reefs". If you were truly interested in saving the reef you would buy wild collected corals or corals maricultured in the country of origin of the animals. I don't really have a problem with the fragging of corals in the hobby or the trading of those corals, I have fragged many corals myself. I do have issue with folks trying to save the reef with misguided perceptions.
Dave
If we use your example of Euphyllia parancora the small pieces that come into the trade of parancora are already so small as to be almost of no impact to the reef. There are no large colonies of parancora imported, only small frags. What I am trying to say is that we are already "thinking smaller" when it comes to the size of corals that are being imported. Aquarium corals are really the bits and pieces from the reef. Where we need to think smaller is in the extraction of coral for use in cement production, or building materials in many island nations. Aquarium corals are just bits of coral that are of almost no impact to the reef.
I don't like to see people make the statement that they buy aquacultured or fragged corals in order to "Save the Reefs". If you were truly interested in saving the reef you would buy wild collected corals or corals maricultured in the country of origin of the animals. I don't really have a problem with the fragging of corals in the hobby or the trading of those corals, I have fragged many corals myself. I do have issue with folks trying to save the reef with misguided perceptions.
Dave
Banker, No problem, it is hard to tell what is serious, what is sarcasm, and what is a joke when reading these internet forums.
There is so much good work going on right now with third world sustinence fishermen I wish everyone could see it first hand. The coral trade is so small that it can not solve all of the third worlds reefs problems but in the areas where a managed coral trade is active things are pretty good. It is certainly easier to find problem areas on the reef where there is no coral trade than in similar areas that do have an active coral trade. The coral trade does give value to native peoples and they protect things of value to them.
Our first world vision of what really impacts coral reefs is often so wrong. Low impact use of a third world reef goes a lot further than the first world trying to legislate zero impact. I think that the coral hobby owes something to the peoples who own the reefs that we take our animals from. It is a type of Bio Piracy to take their diversity and start raising it here as our own. We owe them something to make their reefs valueable to them and to give them the oppertunity to make a living from their natural resource.
I know that this has really gotten away from your original question of whether we should remove smaller size corals than what is now done. The size of the corals taken for the live trade is really insignificant to the reef. It is similar to picking up dime size pebbles from a stream bottom rather than grains of sand. It is the boulders that you may be able to notice missing not the small pebbles and sand, the pebbles and sand are replaced so fast that you just can't tell where they were taken from unless someone comes in with a scoop shovel and scoops some out (similar to the cement or building materials trade).
Aquarium coral collecting is a very good use of a healthy coral reef. I think that there will be more talk of this in the coming year and hopefully hobbyists will come to realize that supporting managed collection from the wild is benificial to the reefs. We will not have to cringe when telling the neighbors where your reef tank corals came from.
Dave
There is so much good work going on right now with third world sustinence fishermen I wish everyone could see it first hand. The coral trade is so small that it can not solve all of the third worlds reefs problems but in the areas where a managed coral trade is active things are pretty good. It is certainly easier to find problem areas on the reef where there is no coral trade than in similar areas that do have an active coral trade. The coral trade does give value to native peoples and they protect things of value to them.
Our first world vision of what really impacts coral reefs is often so wrong. Low impact use of a third world reef goes a lot further than the first world trying to legislate zero impact. I think that the coral hobby owes something to the peoples who own the reefs that we take our animals from. It is a type of Bio Piracy to take their diversity and start raising it here as our own. We owe them something to make their reefs valueable to them and to give them the oppertunity to make a living from their natural resource.
I know that this has really gotten away from your original question of whether we should remove smaller size corals than what is now done. The size of the corals taken for the live trade is really insignificant to the reef. It is similar to picking up dime size pebbles from a stream bottom rather than grains of sand. It is the boulders that you may be able to notice missing not the small pebbles and sand, the pebbles and sand are replaced so fast that you just can't tell where they were taken from unless someone comes in with a scoop shovel and scoops some out (similar to the cement or building materials trade).
Aquarium coral collecting is a very good use of a healthy coral reef. I think that there will be more talk of this in the coming year and hopefully hobbyists will come to realize that supporting managed collection from the wild is benificial to the reefs. We will not have to cringe when telling the neighbors where your reef tank corals came from.
Dave
if they control it like the lumber industry, where you hafta replant 2 trees for every 1 you take down it would be the best way to go about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI04VK0NMyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI04VK0NMyM
The whole idea that we should reduce our reliance on wild collection of corals makes two major assumptions- that 1) collection of corals has a significant impact on the reefs and 2) if there was less demand from the hobby, collectors would collect less. Neither is a realistic assumption.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.[/QUOTE]
Thank god someone else knows what there talking about and can stay on topic.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.[/QUOTE]
Thank god someone else knows what there talking about and can stay on topic.
The whole idea that we should reduce our reliance on wild collection of corals makes two major assumptions- that 1) collection of corals has a significant impact on the reefs and 2) if there was less demand from the hobby, collectors would collect less. Neither is a realistic assumption.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.[/QUOTE]
Thank god someone else knows what they are talking about and can stay on topic.
The presence of a high-value, low-volume fishery like the live coral trade encourages locals to protect the reef from more destructive interests like dynamite fishermen and limestone mining. As a result, a responsible live coral fishery is a part of virtually every management proposal for reef fisheries.[/QUOTE]
Thank god someone else knows what they are talking about and can stay on topic.
sucker_fish
Member
I personally have always started with only frags and grown them out then traded frags for other frags of stuff I wanted.
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