Fresh or formalin bath/prazipro treatment?

[Steve_B]

I am presently treating with hypo for cryptocararyon, and Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m 99% sure itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s crypt. I posted another long topic describing as much information as I could. For those of you who have 2 hours to read it, here it is.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=830297

Here is my new novel, tracking back to what I feel the reason for my present nightmare is.L
I was trying to remember back in time and figure out how these problems began. All of the fish in my 225 were in my 125 for at least maybe 2 years, and I transferred them into my 225 about 2 years ago. So I had these fish for a minimum of 4 years for the most recent introduction. The mess started maybe 8-12 months ago. I had a thriving aquarium that was disease free, with the exception of my previous Queen angel having HLLE. I cured the HLLE by providing sponge to its diet. The problems all began when I took a blue tang that was temporarily being housed in my 70 gal. tank, until I was going to add it to my 225. It had ragged fins and very fast respiration. A few other fish in the 70 had ragged fins as well. I attributed it to fighting. I figured the fast respiration was due to it being beat up and was stressed. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s when I decided to take him out and put him in my 225, before it got too ripped up. The ragged fins didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t heal and the rapid respiration remained. I think that was the beginning of the end that damn blue tang. I would kill it if it hadnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t already died. Up until this point, everything was going along fine. Soon after itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s introduction my queen started developing raised scales, so I treated with copper thinking it was cryptocararyon, and it hadnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t reached the visible spot stage yet. The copper provided no change in the problem. I have never heard of brook or seen its appearance. I showed several pictures here and to a marine biologist (All LFS guys are marine biologists, they claim, yea right) at the LFS. The MARINE BIOLOGIST saw the picture and his immediate reaction was flukes and to treat with prazipro. It basically accomplished nothing adding to the tank water. After it had become so bad I finally did a formalin bath on the queen, and it was dead the next day. I also had a sohal tang around 10ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ for about 6 years. I decided to play it safe (even though the tang showed no symptoms) to treat it with maracyn 1 and 2, thinking the queen actually had a bacterial problem. I followed the Maracyn instructions to the T, and my longtime friend had bit the dust as well by the next day. My wife couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t believe it and cried. I took it like a man and just felt sick for a few months. I called maracyn and described the incident. They said that I used the meds exactly right and to send them the meds for testing. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a whole other story, but the body count was building. After all of that, I now think it probably had one of the aforementioned parasitic diseases that I had let go for so long that the formalin pushed it over the edge. The rest of the fish showed no signs of a problem, so I assumed all was clear. I waited several months before I decided it was safe to add a few more angels including another Queen. They were put in quarintine for 2 weeks ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ a month, showing no signs of a problem. They looked perfect in isolation until I put them into the 225. BTW, I had been checking on the queen for about 2 months at the LFS before I bought it and it looked perfect that entire time. Within a month after being in the 225 all 3 angels started showing the same signs. Facial erosion and raised scales. I made about 200% water changes over a few month period (as I said in my other topic, tried to feed more sponge to help fix the HLLE, but is now refusing it completely. Its appetite is diminishing for most food now. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m now coming to the conclusion that the (flukes or brook) had remained in the tank this entire time. The other fish in the same tank showed no signs of a problem when it was happening the first time or now for whatever reason. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m thinking it attacks angles for the most part, or the rest were carriers that showed no signs.
So now Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m going to start either fresh water, or formalin baths before itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s too late.
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not sure if a freshwater dips would be appropriate, considering they are already in 09 water now. I canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t isolate because it is obviously in the entire tank. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m considering the baths and treating the entire tank with prazipro, thinking maybe prazipro may work if only stopping the transfer of the parasites from one fish to another, but not a cure. I believe that either bath kills either brook or flukes, so Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll be covered regardless of which one it is.
Last time I used the formalin bath, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s 37% solution at 20 drops a gallon for 45 minutes under heavy aeration, and every other day is the correct treatment, if I go that route.
This seems to be the logical solution, unless anybody else has a better one.

 

[leebca]

I can offer little guidance.

With my background in ornamental fish keeping of over 35 years, I've seen a lot. But when it comes to a situation such as you've described, I do post mortem exams on the dead fish before taking any more actions. What is "your situation?" You haven't made a diagnosis as yet.

If you suspect a fluke or parasite, a post mortem exam will show it up to either prove or disprove the theory.

Without the above, everything is a bit of a roll of the dice. You can continue your efforts and still achieve little, except disappointment and frustration. I would say it was time for a professional style post mortem right after the unsuccessful prazipro treatment. on the dead queen.

I wish you luck and hope it is resolved for you.

 

[baobao]

Lee, I agree with your theory, but if he cannot do the post mortem analysis, he's got to do something or it'll be too late and he may lose everything?

If you do dose formalin, make sure there's no copper, or you'll create a toxic situation.(see my previous disaster). moreover, if you do have brook, copper unfortunately is ineffective. because you said you have crypt, you need to treat via hypo or copper. naturally, since copper and formalin don't mix, i think your thinking of hypo and formalin makes sense. i've also heard that prazipro is good product, but you've got to be careful with your water quality - you're already dosing with formalin, which i think takes care of any flukes, and the formalin will weaken your biological filtration.
stick to hypo and formalin. ( dose every other day 1 ml/10 gallon, for about 4-5 treatments, seach under oama - he is expert). finally, maybe a strong uv sterilizer will greatly alleviate, though not necessarily solve, your problems.

 

[Steve_B]

I have used copper and now hypo. I have not used any dips, and I'm not using 09 hypo and copper at the same time. I used copper after huge water changes, with no effect. The ICH problem is isolated from the fluke or brook problem. I realize that copper or hypo will not a cure brook or flukes. I realize that a lot of info is given in my topic, but if you read it carefully, you would realize that youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re not paying attention to what is going on.
The post mortem is really a statement that is very inaccurate based upon what I said if you really read it and didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t respond with a knee jerk statement.

 

[baobao]

Q. on your formalin dip procedure. You stated,

"Last time I used the formalin bath, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s 37% solution at 20 drops a gallon for 45 minutes under heavy aeration, and every other day is the correct treatment, if I go that route. "

I take it you take fish out of tank and conduct dip as described above? otherwise, you're overdosing tank.( dose every other day 1 ml/10 gallon, for about 4-5 treatments, seach under oama - he is expert).

Unfortunately,brook/flukes are in your system, so you have to medicate directly to system.

 

[Steve_B]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7264634#post7264634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baobao
Q. on your formalin dip procedure. You stated,

"Last time I used the formalin bath, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s 37% solution at 20 drops a gallon for 45 minutes under heavy aeration, and every other day is the correct treatment, if I go that route. "

I take it you take fish out of tank and conduct dip as described above? otherwise, you're overdosing tank.( dose every other day 1 ml/10 gallon, for about 4-5 treatments, seach under oama - he is expert).

Unfortunately,brook/flukes are in your system, so you have to medicate directly to system.

I wasn't aware that it could be used directly into a display tank.
Here is the article I followed to the T.

http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm

If I have brook and not flukes, I'm not sure what to do. I have a 29 and a 10-gallon isolation tanks. They would NEVER be able to hold all of the big fish I have. Well when I come to think of it, my $200 tusk, $175 queen and hundreds of dollars more in the other fish, a 55 gallon tank cost would be nothing in comparison.

 

[baobao]

key issue is that dips outside tank will not eliminate problems because flukes/broolc in your system

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Formalin cannot be used in the display tank...it is very toxic. I agree it is a waste to do the dips then return fish to the infested system. A qt is best, but you know that It is difficult when there are many fish involved, some of them large...you can't exactly squeeze them all in a 29
You might check the sales forum here and on other sites, even your local newspaper...see if you can find a deal on a used tank..good luck! I have two 55 qt's going right now..I have been treating new fish that had flukes

I treated the tank with Prazipro and did 3 Formalin dips [every three days] they are doing well

 

[baobao]

kim,I dlsagree-formalih can be dosed directly to bare bottom tanlc.

formalin dosed incorrectly,or in tanlc that is too hot,or has copper are mistakes

however,formalin brealcs down after about 24 hours.and sooner w good aeration

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

What about the biological filtration? Formalin will kill it..Formalin is highly toxic and better used as a dip rather than long term exposure.

 

[Steve_B]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7266086#post7266086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
I agree it is a waste to do the dips then return fish to the infested system. I treated the tank with Prazipro and did 3 Formalin dips [every three days] they are doing well

You see, if it turns out to be brook, I run prazipro in the tank and do the baths just as you said. This could be done in my display tank, because I think the prazipro would at least keep transmission from one fish to another. What Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m going to do is a fresh water or formilan dip with one of my small angels. If I see the flukes falling off, than I know it's flukes.
Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s coming back to me now, that I had a fluke break out years ago. I did freshwater dips and that cured the problem with no return of them.

It doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t matter though, because itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s going to die no matter what and the post mortem will tell us what was.

 

[Steve_B]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7261344#post7261344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca

You can continue your efforts and still achieve little, except disappointment and frustration. I would say it was time for a professional style post mortem right after the unsuccessful prazipro treatment. on the dead queen.

No need to be so optimistic. I know youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re just trying to cheer me up in my time of frustration. Give me a break

BTW, I'M NOT USING PRAZIPRO!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm using hypo for cryptocaryon.
The fluke or brook are seperate issues. If you would read the thing you would know that.

 

[leebca]

Steve_B,

How about some civility here in your postings?

Your wrote in your first post:

The MARINE BIOLOGIST saw the picture and his immediate reaction was flukes and to treat with prazipro. It basically accomplished nothing adding to the tank water.

When I read the above, it meant to me that you tried what the MARINE BIOLOGIST suggested. I took the "It" to be "prazipro."

The people here are trying to help you to the best of their ability. If you expect perfection in their help, you might want to try and get help from elsewhere.

Since my posts seem to annoy you, I'll make it a point to not post in your threads in the future.
:wavehand:

 

[Steve_B]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7266662#post7266662 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
Steve_B,

How about some civility here in your postings?

Your wrote in your first post:

When I read the above, it meant to me that you tried what the MARINE BIOLOGIST suggested. I took the "It" to be "prazipro."

The people here are trying to help you to the best of their ability. If you expect perfection in their help, you might want to try and get help from elsewhere.

Since my posts seem to annoy you, I'll make it a point to not post in your threads in the future.
:wavehand: [/B]

"I had a thriving aquarium that was disease free, with the exception of my previous Queen angel"

(the key word here is Previous)

"The MARINE BIOLOGIST saw the picture and his immediate reaction was flukes and to treat with prazipro. It basically accomplished nothing adding to the tank water. After it had become so bad I finally did a formalin bath on the queen, and it was dead the next day."

(This was all involving my PREVIOUS queen. That's what I ment about actually reading it.)

(How can statements like this be be taken as "trying to help")

"You can continue your efforts and still achieve little, except disappointment and frustration. I would say it was time for a professional style post mortem right after the unsuccessful prazipro treatment. on the dead queen."

(This infurates me to no end)

"post mortem right after the unsuccessful prazipro treatment. on the dead queen."

(the "dead queen" being the key word here)

I agree,

"I'll make it a point to not post in your threads in the future."

Have a nice day
:wavehand:

 

[baobao]

"What about the biological filtration? Formalin will kill it.."
Do you have proof of this?? Ask Oama too. Formalin dissiptes. As long as it is used in disciplined manner, you will not kill bio fil. - ( i dose cautiously and always retreat in between days).

"Formalin is highly toxic and better used as a dip rather than long term exposure. "
- agreed, but that does not mean it cannot be effective being applied directly to tank. the key is proper dosage; moreover, what good is it to use as dip and then return to tank that is infected with the flukes/brook??

 

[Steve_B]

Again, if you actually read the topic, I never said I was treating, or was planning on treating the tank with formilan. I said if I was going to use either formilan or fresh water BATHS, for flukes I would dose the tank with prazipro, with the intent that flukes at least would not be transferred from one fish to another. I initially said the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œmarine biologistââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ told me that prazipro would kill flukes in the display tank. I used it when my PREVIOUS angel was considered to be infested by flukes. Prazipro had no effect, because it wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t a fluke problem or prazipro just doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cure flukes on itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s own. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not trying to be uncivil; I just get outraged when the final outcome is ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œthe deathââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ of my queen, as if there is no hope of a cure. To say a ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œ post mortem right after the unsuccessful prazipro treatment. on the dead queen.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ is just plain ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œuncivilââ"šÂ¬Ã‚, as if you absolutely know the outcome of my problem, and the fate of my queen is certain death. Do you get my point? You have obviously not read what I said, and mixed it up with the other guy that said he was going to treat the entire tank with formilan. Go back and read it, youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re just plain wrong about the facts. Not that I know what is the way to go, you are miss quoting what I said.

 

[Steve_B]

Woops, it looks like I got Leebca and baobao mixed up. It was that I got so used to the tension between Leebca and myself, I didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t pay attention to who made the last post before mine. As they say now, MY BAD, sorry for the confusion and my lashing out at at you Leebca. Sorry, and I hope there no hard feelings.

Baobao, read this article regarding the proper use of formilan.

http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm

The only mention of not using it longer than the standard 250 ppm for 45 minutes as a bath is this;

"An alternate method of administration is a prolonged bath in a quarantine tank at 15 to 25 mg/liter. Two drops per gallon of water is roughly equivalent to 25 mg/liter."

It really doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t say what the author considers a ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œprolonged bathââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ , but it is still considered a BATH, in a quarantine tank. .

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7269248#post7269248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baobao
"What about the biological filtration? Formalin will kill it.."
Do you have proof of this?? Ask Oama too. Formalin dissiptes. As long as it is used in disciplined manner, you will not kill bio fil. - ( i dose cautiously and always retreat in between days).

"Formalin is highly toxic and better used as a dip rather than long term exposure. "
- agreed, but that does not mean it cannot be effective being applied directly to tank. the key is proper dosage; moreover, what good is it to use as dip and then return to tank that is infected with the flukes/brook??

Straight from the link Steve provided, written by Terryb......

"Formaldehyde can quickly kill the bio filter in an aquarium and is highly toxic to invertebrates. Therapy should be carried out as a short-term bath in a large plastic bucket or barrel. Formalin can be purchased at many tropical fish stores or pharmacies. Look for a 37% to 40% solution. Whenever possible avoid removing the fish from water when transferring it to and from the dip to prevent unnecessary stress. Corralling the fish into a container instead of using a net will reduce the likelihood of injury."

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Steve...I just skimmed over your first post [cause I'm lazy ] So I apologize if I am repeating or am off topic


From what I have read, there are many kinds of flukes..It often takes trying a few different types of medicines to find what works. Formalin, Praziquantel, organophoshates were the main meds I came across [Fluke tabs is an organophoshate med] I have a White face Tang that nearly died. I treated with prazipro, which cleared it up but after the 7 days, the spots returned along with blotchy skin..He would lay on his side, breathing heavy. I thought for sure the Tang was a goner. I lowered the sg to 1.011 [Noga claims sg under 1.015 helps slow the reproduction of these pest] I treated with Furan-2 [This took care of the blotches] Then started the first of the three formalin dips..It amazes me that this fish is alive! But unfortunatly, what worked on my fish may not work on yours. I have had this Tang since mid Dec..I battled ich with hypo then as I raised the sg, these Flukes [or whatever] appeared I hope I finally got him healthy, he's driving me nuts!

Some Flukes actually reproduce on the fish, but the eggs are usually uneffected by treatment..Others drop to the substrate to reproduce..So as far as the tank being infested, a qt would also become infested..your using the Prazipro [or thinking about it] so like you said, that will hopefully take care of the flukes in the tank.

I also have a new Blueface..have had him maybe a month. He also had some strange spts on him that , because of his coloring, could only be seen at certain angles. He has also responded well to the same treatment

Many Flukes are specie specific in the wild..in the aquarium, they will infect similar species if they are present [butterflys, Angels] I actually added my Whiteface to my 125 along with a Hippo until my new display was done...the only fish in the tank affected were the two Tangs
So I know the frustration you are feeling. I have been going through 200 gallons of salt a week [if I cut back the water changes on my qt to every other day...I can go two weeks on 200 gallons] Just keep up your research and reading...you'll beat this! [I'll keep my fingers crossed

 

[Steve_B]

Thanks BTTRFLYGRL, for the vote of confidence. This is a different kind of problem than I have ever seen in my 30 years of keeping marine fish. Something got in and it's wreaking havoc on my world. When itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s going right, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s so great to watch and see the interaction and different behaviors, the brilliant colors and diversity. When it going wrong itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s hell, and I just want to give it up. Obviously that isn't the case, but I become very sad to see beautiful creatures going down the tubes.