fresh water dip for ich?

I would love to understand the science behind why a f/w dip is considered effective for velvet but not ich.

Why can f/w dislodge a velvet trophont, but not an ich trophont? I've been unable to find an answer thru my research.
 
While lower osmotic pressure will indeed cause cell lysis, trophonts are embedded in the epithelium/gill tissue and are not exposed to it. This is why FW dips are largely ineffective.

understood, however to claim that "Freshwater dips have no effect on ich whatsoever" , i believe to be false.
 
it will have effect on some of the parasites I'm sure, just no where near all. problem is the misconception out there with Ich that (a) the white spots are the parasite itself, leading people to believe it is an external parasite and (b) that f/w dips act as a cure. regardless, plenty of people report that there is at least some initial relief from the fish after a dip. but the road doesn't end there.
 
understood, however to claim that "Freshwater dips have no effect on ich whatsoever" , i believe to be false.

Actually, since the ich is not exposed to the fresh water, that is basically correct. In the case of other parasites, the fresh water dip operates primarily on the the parasites in the gills and does provide temporary relief.
 
havent come across any reference regarding FW dips that says they are 100% ineffective. have you? would like to see that.

While, I am not really trying to be a source for reference material, my references (used in the stickies in this forum that were reviewed by a marine biologist), are:

Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment by Dr. Edward J Noga. which is well worth having on the shelf and is usually available used

Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology by Dr. Stephen Spotte which is my go to reference for things related to marine biology.

Highly recommended.
 
so some where in those links it mentions fw dips/baths have zero effect?
im not talking full eradication here, if that's what you're thinking im talking about.

I will presume you have never administered the procedure.
Again, direct observation of a purple tang lambasted in ich. after the fw bath the fish was observed to have been relieved of many noticeable white nogules. NOT ALL.
amazingly the fish did recover from the ich.. that was one tough fish I never would have thought it would have made it.

here's a reference from Leebca who's been posting regarding this topic for a bit I think.

" Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer."

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
 
I will presume you have never administered the procedure.

why would you assume that?


here's a reference from Leebca who's been posting regarding this topic for a bit I think.

" Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer."

which may or may not be correct. But clearly, it is your choice. It is simply not considered to be of value by marine biology literature to be of much value with ich. I have no interest in arguing, so if you feel that is of value, go for it.
 
havent come across any reference regarding FW dips that says they are 100% ineffective. have you? would like to see that.

You probably will never see such a reference on any subject. Proving a negative to 100% certainty seems impossible, at least to my nonscientific mind.

In simple terms: ich is not ON the fish, like velvet, its IN the fish. The white spots you see with ich are not the parasite. The white spots are made primarily of dead tissue left when the parasite buries in. It is then protected from the SG shock of the FW. This has been explained a few times, seems simple enough.
 
here's a reference from Leebca who's been posting regarding this topic for a bit I think.

" Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer."

which may or may not be correct.

that's a little different view than agreeing with "Freshwater dips have no effect on ich whatsoever"
 
that's a little different view than agreeing with "Freshwater dips have no effect on ich whatsoever"

So, I don't really understand what your point is. If the goal is complete eradication, what difference does it make if FW dips are either partially effective or not effective at all? The point is that they will not completely eradicate the parasite, so why bother with them in the first place? With all due respect, this seems like splitting hairs.
 
As Deinonych above says, "So, I don't really understand what your point is. If the goal is complete eradication, what difference does it make if FW dips are either partially effective or not effective at all? The point is that they will not completely eradicate the parasite, so why bother with them in the first place? With all due respect, this seems like splitting hairs. "

But, since folks wanted a bit more information on sources, here is one of several Google references: From Adanced Aquarium Magazine (2004)

From Advanced Aquarium Magazine:

"Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985)"

And it goes on:

"Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.

Freshwater dips can cause osmotic shock. Typically the fish are exposed to the air during the process of capture, handling and transfer, all of which are stressful to the fish. Freshwater dips cannot be depended on as the sole method of treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans and can be counterproductive because they are highly stressful to the fish. They should only be used in combination with other treatments that will successfully interrupt the parasite's life cycle."

However, the source for the sticky (advanced facts on Cryptocaryon Irritans) was taken from: Colorni, 1985 and later from Burgess, 1992.

Research on the subject for creating that reference was from Dr. Stephen Spotte's book Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology

Stephen Spotte, a marine scientist, was born and raised in West Virginia. He has been a field biologist for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Waterways Experiment Station (Vicksburg, Mississippi); curator and later director of Aquarium of Niagara Falls (New York); curator of the New York Aquarium and Osborn Laboratories of Marine Science (Brooklyn, New York); director of Mystic Aquarium (Mystic, Connecticut); executive director of Sea Research Foundation and research scientist at the Marine Sciences and Technology Center, University of Connecticut (Groton, Connecticut); principal investigator, Coral Reef Ecology Program (Turks and Caicos Islands, B.W.I.), and adjunct scientist at Mote Marine Laboratory (Sarasota, Florida). Dr. Spotte has a B.S. degree from Marshall University, a Ph.D. from the University of Southern Mississippi, and is author or coauthor of more than 80 scientific papers on marine biology, ocean chemistry and engineering, and aquaculture. Field research has encompassed much of the coastal U.S., Canadian Arctic, Bering Sea, West Indies, Indo-West Pacific, Central America, and the Amazon basin of Ecuador and Brazil. His popular articles about the sea have appeared in National Wildlife, On the Sound, Animal Kingdom, Explorers Journal, and Science Digest. Dr. Spotte has published 18 books, including three volumes of fiction, a memoir, and a work of cultural theory. He is a Certified Wildlife Biologist of The Wildlife Society and also holds a U.S. Merchant Marine officer's license.

But as I indicated above, if someone thinks freshwater dips are a good thing for cryptocaryon irritans, I say go for it. I don't recommend them for this particular parasite.
 
For those wishing to read the source material in Dr. Stephen Spotte's book Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology please see pages 492-496.
 
that's a little different view than agreeing with "Freshwater dips have no effect on ich whatsoever"

Ok then, "near enough as makes no difference."

There's no point in perpetuating misinformation by claiming fw dips "cured" your purple tang of ich, and by telling people with an ich problem to add that stress to the fish rather than performing a real treatment. Add it to the garlic/cleaner shrimp category. I have no interest in arguing, and thank you snorvich for your posts.
 
Ok then, "near enough as makes no difference."

There's no point in perpetuating misinformation by claiming fw dips "cured" your purple tang of ich, and by telling people with an ich problem to add that stress to the fish rather than performing a real treatment. Add it to the garlic/cleaner shrimp category. I have no interest in arguing, and thank you snorvich for your posts.

Honestly. Its like killing 10 fleas on a flea infested dog.

For years, I assumed that the "whitespots" were just scar tissue. Reading what Snorvich posted set me straight. I learn something new on this form whenever I'm open to learning. Happens every 3rd full moon. Thanks Steve!

I hate to even keep this thread going; but I think it would be impossible to prove , nah, ain't worth it.
 
Ok then, "near enough as makes no difference."

There's no point in perpetuating misinformation by claiming fw dips "cured" your purple tang of ich, and by telling people with an ich problem to add that stress to the fish rather than performing a real treatment. Add it to the garlic/cleaner shrimp category. I have no interest in arguing, and thank you snorvich for your posts.

never said cured it did I? why start making more things up?
if an aquarist has a fish that is in really in bad shape with heavy gill infestation it "may" help the fish continue to fight on while a remedy that will cure it like copper is waiting.
in case you are again reading this as I am saying FW dips are a complete remedy to cure ich...I A M N O T.
here read through this and point out anywhere I mention dips as a cure.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595224

you posted false information and I as well as snorvich with his references has illustrated that.
 
But, since folks wanted a bit more information on sources, here is one of several Google references: From Adanced Aquarium Magazine (2004)

From Advanced Aquarium Magazine:

"Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985)"

And it goes on:

"Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.


But as I indicated above, if someone thinks freshwater dips are a good thing for cryptocaryon irritans, I say go for it. I don't recommend them for this particular parasite.

for a fish that is in really bad shape any relief may help. they have there place under exigent circumstances. typically a fish would be treated with a proven method prior to getting that bad. Hence, it was one of the few times I have ever even used the treatment.

AGREED, I wouldn't recommend them as a treatment for eradication either.

AGAIN, not saying and never said it should be used as an eradiaction treatment as its not going to work for that.

BTW: thanks for taking the time to post up those reference extracts..
 
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