Frustrated... help from the gurus?!

elensius

Member
Despite the fact that all my chemistry seems to be within acceptable ranges, I am very frustrated by the fact that I've gradually lost roughly 2/3 of my coral due to *very* slow tissue necrosis.

For most of the SPS and favia-type LPS, the colors (or even just 'quality' of the tissue, even if there wasn't much color going on) gradually deteriorate, just fading away until they're finally gone... some of my acans look ok, but others have shrunk until they too have vanished... and though my chalices are hanging in there, their growth is extremely slow (if it is happening at all).

The following are my last four readings from my test kits (roughly a week apart each time, and confirmed by taking a sample to Caeser's, just to rule out the possibility of a bunk test kit):

ph 8 8 8.1 8.1
alk (dkh) 9 9 9 9.5
ca 410 400 410 400
mg 1400 1380 1360 1390
phosphate .05 .05 .05 .05

Possible explanations I've come up with or had suggested to me:

"¢ too much chemical warfare going on, in particular from a mushroom population that was starting to get out of hand. Unfortunately, removed roughly 3/4 of the mushrooms hasn't fixed the problem. I also have a some carbon in my sump to help with this.

"¢ bad lights. My bulbs (2 x 250W 20K MH plus 2 96W actinics in a standard Coralife fixture) are just 4 months old though, so unless they were defective to begin with, I don't think it is a case of "not enough light."

"¢ more phosphate present than the tests indicate (most likely explanation?!). For 4 years, I had a 5" sand bed in my tank, and I KNOW it caused my phosphates to be way too high. The sand bed is now gone (less than 1/2" left just to covered the bottom), but I've read that my rockwork could have been absorbing phosphate for all those years, and it is now releasing it back into the tank (and, to make matters worse, this kind of phosphate might not be the kind a standard test kit picks up). I do have GFO in my sump as well, and though 0.05 isn't as good as 0, it is far lower than my corals were living in for the previous four years.

"¢ bacteria. Another possibility is that the little bit of algae that is growing near the bottom of my overflows may be harboring bacteria that is harming the corals... probably not as likely as the phosphate theory, but another possibility I've come across.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate any thoughts, insights, suggestions the pros on the board might have about things for me to test, try, etc. It has been extremely frustrating to watch things die off - I had a green pocillopora that I got from Steve Ruddy as a 1.5" at one of the very first club meetings that had grown to be basketball size... and now it is nothing but a skeleton (with lots of other smaller skeletons around it in the tank :-( ).

Thanks for your help!

-Nate
 
No guru here and sorry for all the questions...

- How is your ro/di water? Have you tested the tds? Need new filter membranes?
- What kind of salt are you using? Have you changed brands? How much and how often are your water changes? Thinking about not enough trace elements.
- When did you go from 5" sandbed to 1/2"? Does it coincide with the timing of the coral issues? Have you tested nitrates, longshot?
- How old is the rock? 5+ years like the sandbed?
- When did you start using GFO and how much are you using. I use 1/4 to 1/2 of recommended.
- Have you always run 9dkh and 400ca. Seems like the dkh needs to comedown to 8ish with 400ca OR ca needs to go up 450ish with 9dkh. This is if you are chasing numbers and looking at Randy-Holmes-Farley's alk/ca zone diagram. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry
- What is your salinity?
- How is the temperature and is the chiller been kicking on/working?

Hope these questions lead to an answer.

-Mike
 
• re: ro/di water. Have not tested TDS - do my "symptoms" match what normally happens when TDS get out of hand? Filter membranes are fairly new, though not brand spanking new.

• re: salt. Using red sea salt. used to use coral pro, but switched to "regular" for a lower alk number when mixed. Switched salts roughly 3 months before problem started, so might be a contributing factor... I have a 120 gallon tank with probably 100 gallons total water volume; lately, I've been doing a 10 or 15 gallon water change each week in hopes of getting "bad" water out (be it due to phosphates, chem warfare, or whatever).

re: sandbed. switched from 5" to 1/2" over a period of about 6 weeks that ended roughly 2 months before the problem started. I haven't tested nitrates, but Caeser's did (and checked out ok). One thought is that the sand bed was providing a lot of food for the corals, and once it was gone, my usual feeding routine was not enough. On that note, I'm curious whether my corals might simply be starving? as it stands, I feed my tank (which includes 4 or 5 small fish) 1 tsp each of Reef Nutrition Oyster Feast and Arctipods three times a week. Not enough maybe?

• re: rock. Yes, rock is old... probably 7 years old, pulled from a few different tanks when I consolidated into the 120.

• Have used GFO since I set up the tank in '09. I put roughly 1/2-2/3 cup each time around.

• re: dkh and ca. No, have not always run those numbers. Historically also had very low dkh (like 5.5-6?!) when I was trying to stay on top of it manually, but have been running those numbers since adding dosing pumps to the system for alk and ca last summer (started roughly 4 months before problem started). Again, my numbers may not be in the "optimal" zone, but a) they're not too far off, and b) my corals used to grow fine (not like Grant's or Tom's, but they did grow! :-) ) much further from the optimal zone... so I don't think I fine-tuning is the problem... but it could be(?).

• re: salinity. I measure it in specific gravity, but converting my readings to the more traditional "salinity," it looks like the last four have been 31 30 30 30.5

• re: temp. Assuming the chiller digital reading is accurate, temp is pretty steady in the 77.5-79 range, with the chiller kicking in (and seeming to work) on hot days when it gets up to 81.

Thanks for the thoughts - looking forward to sorting this out and seeing the surivors start to grow and prosper again before I start spending money on restocking!
 
Interesting. Carlos's tank is doing the samething. I'm going over his house when I get back with my test kits to compare numbers.

It's odd how your salinity fluctuates. Do you have a top off. It's not the culprit but interesting that it fluctuates.

How are you dosing?
 
No guru here either but wanted to touch on a few things I noticed..

First saying 0 is best for p04. If your actively trying to get there that could be your issue. 0 true reading is all bad when it comes to corals. I think your level of. 05 is perfect imo..

Second is your salinity.. Are you measuring in %/ppt? So your reading 30ppt?thats low for a coral tank it should be around 35 ppt if I'm understanding what your converting to . is your specific gravity 1.024-26?. Are you using a refractometer? Swing arm? Swing arm can be reliable at reading but not accurate to the number so calibrating your (if used) to a calibrated refractometer is a good idea to see your true level in the tank and how much if any the hydrometer is off..I've also read it can be difficult to maintain the big 3 with lower salinity.

Good luck I'd check all you can test wise including mag if your having issues keeping your levels stable and run some poly filter to rule out metal contamination. It's cheap insurance to run poly filter when issues arise to make sure there were no accidental contaminants added to the water column, like metal hose clamps, screws inside check valves/ball valves, brass fittings, cheap pumps rusting, chemicals etc.. .
 
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Also not a pro/guru...

One overall thing that jumps out at me is the amount of change. Maybe it just needs to settle in a bit. As long as there is no new death, how about just regular good maintenance?

10% WC every week. I like to drain some tank water into a white bucket to see how yellow it is. Maybe add fresh carbon if it's yellow. Go slow. To much can clean so fast the corals are toasted!

My tank looks the best when I do a 2% change every day.

Clean the skimmer every few days.

If you suspect metals, there are scrubbers for that. Don't know why that would just 'happen'.
 
Salt change along with manual to dosing pumps is my guess. Could it be the corals that you had for so long were fine with the previous parameters, then the sudden change to consistent higher parameters caused the issue.

Another thought... could it be stray voltage?
 
Thanks for the all the ideas...

Given that not only have old corals died off, but new ones recently place in the tank have also done the same thing are looking fine for several weeks (and maybe up to two months in some cases), I'm guessing that it doesn't have to do with the changes that were made (though I acknowledge the changes could have stressed the old corals and accelerated the problem of whatever is actually going on). Since even new corals do the same thing - look fine... then get pale... then get even more pale... then finally slough off all their tissue - I'm guessing it is related to an ongoing thing rather than a "rate of change" problem.

I was hoping that someone would have seen this phenomenon before and would be able to say "ah, yes - when your corals do that across the board, it is mostly likely___ and you need to ___ to make it stop," but alas... it's never that easy, right?

I suppose stray voltage is a possibility, but given that the problem seems to have started around the time I switched to dosing pumps, I'm wondering if they're the most likely culprit. I do my tests around the same time everyday, and as mentioned before, though not perfect, nothing appears to me to be terribly out of line (esp. relative to how bad things have been at times over the past 10 years when my tank(s) DID have a better success rate!); however, I am wondering if maybe I am causing spikes that are harmful, even though I have the dosing spread out over the day... and the spikes might be subsiding by the time I do my tests.

Also, I "like" (not really :-) ) the idea that perhaps there are heavy metal contaminants due to rusting clamps or parts, as a lot of the equipment is fairly old... are there any good tests to check for this possibility? simpler to just get one of those polyfilters in place and see if it does the trick (i.e. no need to measure the levels first... just let the filter clean them up if they're present)?

Anyhow, thanks again for the suggestions... keep 'em coming if you're just now reading the thread, and I'll try to keep people posted if/when I make some progress!
 
Corals paling until dead suggests to me:

insufficient lighting (your lighting sounds sufficient)
insufficient water quality (your numbers look reasonable)
lack of food
old sand bed
toxin / negative stimulus (such as stray voltage or coral warfare / turpins)
 
Did you get anywhere on this? I really think your salinity is a major issue. Running it that low will not sustain coral for long. If it's at most 31ppt that's not right.

What got me thinking of this was referring on another forum's thread I read and contributed to and his anemone issues were stemmed from salinity.
 
I see from this thread there are most likely a few underlying issues..

First the sand bed.
Did you completely replace or just syphon out 3.5"?

Second the rock is most likely saturated with phosphates from sitting in that sand bed for 7 years and now that you've removed so much sand that now bare rock is shedding the excess waste. I had that issue it took a good 2 months of twice a week 10% water changes and changing gfo weekly, But the phosphates shouldnt effect your corals so drastically.

I would agree with a few people that either stray current or chem warfare is effecting your corals.

If it was my tank I would do a few things.

First get a poly filter some carbon and throw it in.

Then check for stray voltage.

Start a atleast a weekly water change schedule.

Start changing gfo frequently atleast every 2 weeks. I would also take a rock out of your display place it in a clean bucket with fresh salt water leave it in for 24 hours then check the water for phosphates.

I'm more of a Yoda lol

Good luck hope all goes well!!
 
thanks for the additional questions/thoughts Dapg8gt and Wings6010...

re: salinity. I actually measure it with a swing arm hydrometer, and I keep track of specific gravity. I was told to keep it between 20 and 25, and my readings are always in the 21.5 - 23 range... so that doesn't seem like it should be a problem, but might be?

re: sand bed. took out roughly 4.5" of sand over a period of roughly 6 weeks. Now have just a thin layer (.5" or less on average) on the bottom of the tank (perhaps still a little thicker in the back part of the tank where I couldn't really get to it as easily... but still got most of it).

re: rock. I agree the rocks are probably saturated, but am wondering about the fact that a) at least according to my test kit (and my LFS' test kit), my phosphates aren't *that* high, and b) my corals spent many years surviving (not necessarily thriving, but at least not dying) when my levels were showing up much higher with test kits.

I will give the "take a rock out and let it sit in "clean" water for a day and see how much it leeches" test a try...

re: stray voltage. I did get a multimeter and tested for stray current yesterday, and, as best as I can tell, that's not a problem.

chem warfare could be a problem, but again, I took out a good portion of the mushrooms (which was our best guess as the culprit) and corals still die. there is also a fairly small branching hammer in the tank, but my corals didn't seem to have a problem coexisting with it in the past, even when it was much bigger (I gave away several frags at one point). I also have a fair amount of blue clove polyp, which I've been told shouldn't be a problem, but might be? (and I will never put it my tank again if I ever start over :-) )

I will give the polyfilter, carbon, and another batch of fresh GFO a go, as well as be fairly aggressive about water changes for the foreseeable future.

I suppose the only other "variable" that could be at work would be that there's some sort of contaminant in the salt, as the problem did seem to start around the same time I opened a new tub, but I can't remember for sure... however, though I realize they might not want to publicize, it seems like I would have seen it on a forum somewhere that "by the way, lot #xxxx of Red Sea Coral Pro salt has a problem - don't use it!", but since I haven't seen it, I'm guessing others aren't reporting the same problem and pinpointing the salt as the common variable.

Anyhow, thanks for your help... I'll keep the board posted as I try things on the checklist... and once my few survivors start to show signs of healthy growth again, guess who will be wanting to buy frags :-)
 
Just commenting on one of the above...

Specific gravity (SG) is supposed to be 1.025-1.026. I assume your numbers assume the 1.0 part. Variations you show are WAY to large. Also the range is way below what is considered good for corals.

The other issue is swing arm hydrometers are not the best way to measure SG. Any dried salt or bubbles on the arm can throw it off. Best is a well calibrated refractometer.

You can bring up the SG by topping off with saltwater instead of RO. Go slow. Most beasties are sensitive to the increase.
 
Just commenting on one of the above...

Specific gravity (SG) is supposed to be 1.025-1.026. I assume your numbers assume the 1.0 part. Variations you show are WAY to large. Also the range is way below what is considered good for corals.

The other issue is swing arm hydrometers are not the best way to measure SG. Any dried salt or bubbles on the arm can throw it off. Best is a well calibrated refractometer.

You can bring up the SG by topping off with saltwater instead of RO. Go slow. Most beasties are sensitive to the increase.

Totally agree if the measurements are accurate that's 100% your issue. I was a little surprised that no one else but me thought the salinity was the culprit.. Coral can not live for long at that salinity at least some more sensitive species. No matter what someone told you to run your tank @ it should be at or really close to 35ppt for coral not between a large of a gap as you stated. Especially with a hydrometer.

And using a hydrometer isn't the best but they actually are pretty reliable at consistent readings if you keep them clean and make sure no bubbles are on the arm. The part most aren't good at is an accurate reading. So calibrating yours with a refractometer marked @ 35ppt with a sharpie or permanent marker so your sure it's in the ballpark. Fwiw I have a hydrometer that I used to use before I got my refractometer that I tested.. It was off by a lot but once marked it was fairly consistent when I fiddled with it after learning that trick. All in all you should really get a refractometer and raise your levels slowly as John suggested.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/
 
Thanks again for all the input...

I'll raise the salinity as part of trying to bring things into line, but given that the tank was doing fine at 21.5-23 sg for five years (and that band is one of the few things that actually did not change around the time my problem started), I'm not convinced that it is what triggered the massive die-off (esp. since the green pocillopora mentioned in my initial post had spent its entire life growing from a small frag to the size of a basketball with my salinity in that range the entire time - and yet it, too, all of a sudden went pfffffffffffft.).

Thanks again - I really appreciate the suggestions!

Either way, the consensus seems to be that 25 would be better, so I'm working on bring it up as part of "operation fixit."
 
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