Genicanthus males - your experiences?

[SDguy]

I thought I would start a thread where people could share their experiences with keeping, specifically, male genicanthus species angelfish. Mine is turning female, and I'd just like to know who has experience with this, and who has not had it happen. Maybe a trend in husbandry will emerge. I'll start:

I have a large 6+" male Genicanthus melanospilos and a smaller (4") female. They are in a 115g tall tank (48" x 18" x 31"). They were added at the same time, but were purchased separately. They have been in the tank about a year and a half. Early on, I did see the male court the female a couple times. The male rarely chases the female for a couple seconds, but otherwise zero aggression. Both are in perfect health, and eat anything.

I was hoping that in the smaller tank, where they would be in constant visual contact, this would not happen. Clearly I was wrong. As I wait to soon own the biggest female G. melanospilos I have ever seen I look forward to reading your replies

 

[Gwynhidwy]

I had, just sold in fact, a harem of three Genicanthus watanabeis. I owned them for about a year and a half and the person that I bought them from had them for more than a year before that. The male displayed male coloration for the entire time. They exhibited regular spawning behavior in my tank. I kept them in a 155G with fairly open aquascaping.

I have pondered the idea that the loss of male coloration (I don't know if they actually revert to female, I was told it was only the coloration that changed) is due to only having one female. That perhaps with a harem of multiple females this change would not occur. I don't know if that is the case, but is an idea and the only standout difference that I have come up with after talking with several people who have had their males change, while mine did not.

 

[snorvich]

I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13043880#post13043880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.

Would you mind elaborating...length of time, size tank, etc. Thanks

 

[BangkokMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13043880#post13043880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.

You rarely hear of females turning male. It pretty much eliminates the 'harem' idea of maintaing a male as a male.
Steve - Was the watanabe in a pair or a single specimen? Were there any other Genicanthus being kept in the tank?

 

[BangkokMatt]

There is a 6 month gap between these 2 photographs. I'm not going to even try to assume why the change occurs. The more research I do the more random it appears.

[/IMG]

He is in a pair and is also kept with a larger Goldflake (just for the record)

 

[ReeferAl]

I bought a pair of melanospilos angels. While in the QT the male reverted to female, even in the presence of another female.
I subsequently added a third female to the mix. All stayed female, even the largest, previous male.
I bought a 4th, male. I put pictures of females on the glass all around the QT. He stayed male throughout the QT process- 6 weeks. He was a bit smaller than the largest female in the DT. When I put him into the DT the largest, dominant female (previous male) attacked him mercilessly. I inserted a barrier into the tank to separate them, but by the time I had done so the male was injured and a few days later he died. So I still have only 3 females.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13044730#post13044730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I put pictures of females on the glass all around the QT.

:lol: Wow, and I thought I tried hard....

OK, so scratch "having multiple females helps" off the list...

 

[jda]

One of the locals had a male watanabei start to turn female after the his mate jumped. He put a bellus (or melano, I forget) in the tank and the watanabei immediately went back to strong male coloring. Another local had a female watanabei turn to male after he put a female bellus in the tank.

My watanabei pair stayed put the whole time that I had them.

The mature males get a differnet body shape from the females with a wider, more elongated throat as well as a longer body. I wonder if a mature male would every change back to a female? From my experience, SDguy's male is a young male with just a color change, not a body change.

 

[SDguy]

I agree...I've seen pics of really BIG Genicanthus males that are "different" in shape from females, just never with a melanospilos. So what do you think of my male, not sexually a male, so it could revert back? Interesting theory.... But my male was fine for a year, and even courted the female...maybe still not enough? And he's big

Compared to the female:

 

[jda]

Yeah - it is just a theory. Perhaps size is not the issue, rather time for the male sex organs to develop? It makes sense that a large female could turn into a large male, but still need a good amount of time to develop the organs. ...whereas a female half of the size could go male at a young age and be a fully developed male at a smaller size.

Your male does look like he is developing the longer body, but the throat is not as pronounced as some that I have seen. Perhaps he is an older fish, but still a younger male?

My Watanabei pair had different body shapes almost as pronounced as the Semicinctus pictures in this article near the bottom.

Did you ever see the pair try to spawn? Mine would attempt to spawn by chasing in circles as they ascended indicating that they could be sexually mature. Like Schultz III states in his article, we would need to see the release of sperm before truly stating that a male has changed back into a female - and then see eggs.

 

[SDguy]

I was thinking of that article as I read your post

No, I never saw mine spawn, just court. Perhaps the smaller tank approach backfired - instead of keeping them as is, through constant visual contact, it prevented them from fully courting and spawning, keeping the male, male. Hmmmm.....

 

[SDguy]

Really, no more long term male genicanthus angel keepers?

 

[bradleyj]

I added a nice male watanabie to my 225g tank over a year ago to see if it would hook up with my female. Well, my hippo tang decided she did not want 2 watanabies in her tank and killed the female. A couple of months ago my male started turning female and is almost completely changed over.
Here is a pic of her now, you can still see what used to be his stripes.

 

[bradleyj]

I also have a male swallowtail that has changed also.

 

[EnderG60]

I had a male watanabie for almost a year by himself and he never changed colors. I think that he may have been a super male though, he had super bright colors and was about 6" long.

he eventually dies from a swim blatter infection, which totally caught be off gaurd since he had been fine for almost a year.

 

[SDguy]

Well, crappy track record so far for melanospilos

 

[SDguy]

Interesting update today. The "male" chased the female more than ever today.....she then stopped, and "fluttered" in front of him, stopping all aggression.....so what does that mean?

 

[MyReefCreations]

My watanabeis pair is more "pair"er than ever. The males seems to ahve become more male over time. The females chronioc pesters him for spawning, and then he gets mad and chases her around. Real white,... well I guess blue trash.

Bear in mind this- flashy males are at a very distinct disadvantage, in a functional ecological sense. Brighter, fdlashier fish are more obvious to predatiors. The main benefit to this is sexual selection from mates. MAny species will adjust their appearance to help counteract this. For example, a huge number of birds will have breeding plumage, and non-breeding, or eclipse, plumage. Is it possible these males are really NOT reverting to females, but just dulling down the colors, as breeding isnt prevalent, and they see no reason to draw attention to themselves (not willful decisions, obviously). In my scenario, there are certain cues which would cause the reversal back to male. Prehaps a "better" chance of breeding (more females, more room, certain foods, who knows???), or more sexual competiton (another male). Just spitballing.

 

[racingrich]

Have any of you fed caulerpa to the swallowtail's and if so how did they like it. I have read that they should eat some feather caulerpa and I have a small amount in my tank that I would like to control.
thanks Rich