Glucose additions causes cyano & algal problems in addition to coral problems.

I don't believe I've ever heard or read that algae make their own nitrogen or are capable of breaking the N2 bond as cyanobacteria can . Could you elaborate or provide source material?

I have never used bacterial supplements in over a year of dosing . Don't see much point in dosing commercial concoctions of bacteria continuously that don't thrive in the tank since there are plenty of faculative heterotrophs in there already. Varying the carbon source proportions seems to manage the cyano issue well enough probably via shifts in bacterial diversity.
 
At this point I consider my tank good for experimentation since my next step is to simply brake it down and start over as clean as possible. I do have a nice assortment of softies that seem to be thriving & multiplying under the current conditions. The maintenance regarding the algae is too much for my taste. :lol:

I have a wide assortment of carbon sources at my disposal perhaps vinegar would be my choice. Any particular brand of bacteria to try dosing, MB7?
 
I don't believe I've ever heard or read that algae make their own nitrogen or are capable of breaking the N2 bond as cyanobacteria can . Could you elaborate or provide source material?

I have never used bacterial supplements in over a year of dosing . Don't see much point in dosing commercial concoctions of bacteria continuously that don't thrive in the tank since there are plenty of faculative heterotrophs in there already. Varying the carbon source proportions seems to manage the cyano issue well enough probably via shifts in bacterial diversity.

sorry, i should have been more clear and made a distinction. yes you are correct that cyano can fix nitrogen, but some plants and algae can fix nitrogen but via symbiosis with nitrogen-fixing bacteria. what i meant was that many algae can get their N from nitrates.

i totally agree with your point that who knows what dosing commercial concoctions will do and whether there are even any survivable bacteria in there. the best solution as was alluded to by philbo, is to grow your own, grow a species that can survive aerobic conditions but can reduce nitrates under anaerobic conditions. In this manner, you seed them in hopes they will gradually take over. certainly you could try with just carbon sources, but the point is that it may be easier and faster if you can get viable bacteria introduced to the tank
 
Ill chime in on this one with my 2 cents. If you look at the metabolic pathways, glucose is very 'upstream' w/respect to energy conversion. Ethanol which gets converted to acetylaldeyde, then to acetic acid, ultimately enters the metabolic stream in the citric acid cycle as acetyl CO-A. Many of the metabolic steps are feedback regulated, so upstream inhibition (due to an abundance of glucose) could potentially adversely affect all the downstream pathways to some degree. So, this I would guess is why systems seem to be more sensitive to sugar dosing. To further muddy things it is quite likely that different organisms have evolved such that different portions of the metabolic pathway are more selectively efficient.
 
Ill chime in on this one with my 2 cents. If you look at the metabolic pathways, glucose is very 'upstream' w/respect to energy conversion. Ethanol which gets converted to acetylaldeyde, then to acetic acid, ultimately enters the metabolic stream in the citric acid cycle as acetyl CO-A. Many of the metabolic steps are feedback regulated, so upstream inhibition (due to an abundance of glucose) could potentially adversely affect all the downstream pathways to some degree. So, this I would guess is why systems seem to be more sensitive to sugar dosing. To further muddy things it is quite likely that different organisms have evolved such that different portions of the metabolic pathway are more selectively efficient.

this is definitely true. in another thread on comparing the differences between vodka and vinegar dosing, i was trying to make the point that ethanol must be converted to acetate (i.e. vinegar) during the course of its metabolism. Certainly, the genes that metabolize ethanol and vinegar are often glucose-repressed, meaning that they are shut down if there is a lot of glucose around. But my hunch is that glucose may not often be that abundant as it would get taken up and used very readily.
 
"Have you thought about using zeolites? Ultralith or zeovit to help concentrate ammonia in one place for bacterial removal."

I would enjoy a little more information on your take regarding these products. ;)
 
this is definitely true. in another thread on comparing the differences between vodka and vinegar dosing, i was trying to make the point that ethanol must be converted to acetate (i.e. vinegar) during the course of its metabolism. Certainly, the genes that metabolize ethanol and vinegar are often glucose-repressed, meaning that they are shut down if there is a lot of glucose around. But my hunch is that glucose may not often be that abundant as it would get taken up and used very readily.


Just looking at pathways, you could likely make the argument that vinegar dosing is perhaps the way to go. Also, given the reactivity of the aldehyde intermediate, I might avoid the vodka. However, this is just looking at things on paper, and people have obviously had success with both approaches.
 
"Would you be interested in growing your own bacteria to dose"

Yes.

How to grow your own denitrifying organic bacteria

I have developed a method using lawn fertiliser which is the method I am currently using and am about to try a second method which should be more controllable. This second method will require potassium phosphate and sodium nitrate.
I originally started my bacteria culture using tap water and a weak house plant fertiliser but the nitrate, phosphate and potassium (NPK) levels were too low and resulted in a very weak amount of bacteria. I have recently been using lawn fertiliser which is much more concentrated in NPK with great results. The NPK ratio of the lawn fertiliser is 38-5-5.

Materials:
2 Glass jars ca.200mL
Small plastic syringe
Lawn fertiliser with N-P-K ratio around; 38-5-5
Sugar
Synthetic seawater using RO water at ca.33ppt
5mL mature tank water
Glass 500mL jug
PO4 and NO3 test kits
Spoon scoops from supermarket (need ½ teaspoon scoop)

Method:
Add 300mL of sea water to one of the glass jars using the glass jug. Then add a level ½ teaspoon scoop of lawn fertiliser, put lid on the jar and swirl till dissolved (the water may have a green tinge), this will be our stock solution. Aerate for ca. 1 hour to oxidize any free iron which could cause problems later. Now fill the other jar with 250mL of sea water and add 50mL of the stock (seawater from the first jar). This new 50mg/L as NO3 saltwater media will be your bacteria media. Now take a sample and measure NO3. If you are unsure whether it is 50mg/L you can double check by taking 20mL of bacteria media and adding it to 80mL of seawater and testing it for NO3, this sample should contain 10mg/L NO3. If it doesn’t you can adjust the bacterial media by either diluting or adding more stock media till at around 50mg/L as NO3. Now add two table spoons of sugar to the bacteria media and swirl for about 30 seconds till some sugar is dissolved (there will be a sugar layer at the bottom; this is okay). Now add ca.5mL of mature tank water using a syringe to the bacteria media and close the lid securely. Swirl the jar daily and Monitor NO3 and PO4 content every 2 days until at 0mg/L this can take one to two weeks. It is very important that the jar is stored in the dark at room temperature to allow to ferment.
When at 0mg/L you have grown your first culture of anaerobic bacteria. Now you need to repeat the procedure, adding 50mL of the stock from before to 250mL of seawater in a jar but instead of adding a mass of sugar only add a teaspoon. Innoculate the new media by adding ca.5-10mL of the bacterial media from before and leave in the dark at room temperature again. Monitor NO3 and PO4 after 24 hours. If NO3 concentration and PO4 isn’t at 0mg/L add another teaspoon of sugar and leave for another 24 hours, repeat NO3 and PO4 test and one teaspoon of sugar addition every 24 hours until PO4 and NO3 are at 0mg/L. It should only take 2-4 days to reduce down to 0mg/L.
Once at 0mg/L this bacterial solution is ready to dose into your tank at a rate of around 3-6mL per 100 Gallons with carbon source daily until cyano is gone or just as a bacterial top up once per week. The bacteria is best to be stored in the fridge for up to 3 months, chilling the bacteria should put them into a dormant state but not kill them.
Phosphate in lawn fertiliser is in the form phosphorus pentoxide( P205) it cannot be measured by a phosphate kit (PO4) yet, when bacteria have broken down the majority of the nitrate they will break down phosphorus pentoxide to phosphate, this has been observed in my PO4 testing when the nitrate level in the bacterial media has been reduced to around 2.5mg/L - 5mg/L with a 1mg/L PO4 reading.

Organic bacteria will use oxygen whilst feeding on the sucrose until the oxygen level is completely depleted then use nitrate as a form of oxygen to respire while feeding on the sucrose. The first fermenter is used to get a good volume of bacteria and then the second fermenter is innoculated from this bacteria and carbon source slowly added to try to avoid too much excess sugar in the solution so that it can be stored.

This method has the added benefit of enhancing the organic bacteria already in your tank not adding foreign bacteria that might not survive in the conditions of your tank. It has been observed that bacteria can feed on other bacteria so even if there are dead bacteria they will be fed upon and aid your bacteria in your tank. Any excess dead bacteria not eaten by other bacteria will feed sponges and other filter feeders in the aquarium.

Phil aka philbo32 aka invert phil
 
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Well, Phil I thank you very much for posting this information in great detail. I believe this information should be shared to our fellow hobbyists and I hope you do not mind if I save it for future posts. :)

IMHO, dosing anaerobic bacteria makes much more sense for our purposes then aerobic bacteria. I love DIY methods, which assures one that they are dosing what they want dosed. Again many thanks.
 
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No problem, I have also posted this method in the reef discussion part of the forum for any input/improvements on this method.
 
I was thinking the same thing as far as using vinegar. I have always wondered about why using vodka was recommend more than vinegar.

i brought up in another thread that one difference between the two is that ethanol is uncharged and freely diffusible, but on the other hand acetate is negatively charged and probably not uptaken as easily. so the availability of ethanol and acetate to populations of microbes in their niches may be different... but given a choice between the two yes I would use vinegar/acetate since it is downstream of ethanol.
 
No problem, I have also posted this method in the reef discussion part of the forum for any input/improvements on this method.

philbo, is this protocol tried and true, or something you are still experimenting with? i may have a few questions as to why you are doing certain steps...
 
Not to take away from Toaster's question, but would you all agree that dosing anaerobic bacteria vs aerobic bacterial would the appropriate way to go? Perhaps dosing a mixture of the two may be better?

I believe the general consensus is that vinegar may be the best carbon source to use? Perhaps Nathan may disagree. :lol:
 
FWIW, I do not think we have a good understanding (or even any remote idea, for that matter) on how much dosed organic carbon is consumed by aerobic bacteria (or fungi) how much by anaerobic/hypoxic bacteria (or fungi), and how much is consumed directly by large organisms.

I expect the answer varies strongly from tank to tank, based on what species of bacteria are present to begin with, what is dosed and how, where there is surface area for them to bind to, and what larger creatures are present.
 
Randy, I agree we are shooting in the dark. ;)

What would you recommend, if I were to start an experiment on my own tank, as far as bacterial type and carbon source to use? The entire back wall of my tank is covered in rock (I have lots of in in there). I have a deep sand bed in a 55 gallon drum with about 6" of sand. I do not have but 1" of sand mixed with crushed coral in my tank. I removed the macro.
 
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