Good fish for my tank?

While I highly respect your research, I do in fact believe some of that information to be untrue in that I do believe this fish (Zebrasoma Rosratus) to be truly rare. Yes, the location is remote, but fish (i.e. Flame Angels) are still collected from the Christmas Island regularly and exported to Hawaii. I've spoken with several divers on the subject (here on RC) and most have concluded that even spotting one in the ocean is a very uncommon occurance. While yes, you are correct in the regard of exploitation to increase profit, at the end of the day there is some truth to the supposid "rarity" of some of our sea creatures. With that being said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
anybody up for a group purchase?

I'm sure the prices on these supposedly rare deepwater fish would drop if there was more demand.

(Just kidding, of course!)

I wonder what kind of expenses are involved when collecting deepwater species... not to mention the PITA of decompressing those fish collected when they're brought to the surface... and transportation costs for getting those fish still alive after collection and handling to somebody's doorstep.

Heck, when's the last time you sent a box of corals to the west coast overnight... are you aware of the cost of shipping things nowadays?

In all fairness, even if the Candy is a common deepwater basslet in nature (which it isn't) $899 isn't a bad price for the species.
A run of the mill commonly seen Achilles Tang collected in Hawaii' is going to set you back around $100 (or more).

Hoards of fish keepers rabid for the next "in" species won't put a dent in the price of this fish. The only factor that might drop the price on this species is captive breeding, and for that to happen you need a pair.
 
I do in fact believe some of that information to be untrue in that I do believe this fish (Zebrasoma Rosratus) to be truly rare.
x2

It's not like these fish are "LE Zebrasoma".

There's a big difference between fact and opinion. Remember the Passenger Pigeon?

Tens of thousands of Marine Iguanas diving off the waters of Galapagos doesn't make the species not rare.
 
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Honestly, if I were going to buy ONE, I'd PROBABLY buy TWO! Why not? To me (I don't know about others on here) there's not much difference between $900 and $1800. They're both out of my budget, and I'd be going (deeper) into debt to buy just one. So, why not buy two on the hopes that they might breed!?!?! To me, it would be worth the risk.

Then, if they did breed, I could sell them to all of you for the bargain basement price of $499! :spin3:
 
Marine Iguanas: yeah Gary, there is a reason why they only stayed evolving in that one particular spot in the whole world! Still marks a question, if that means they are "rare" just because that's the only spot to see them anywhere... ? A matter of opinion I suppose, since it's remote for "you" to go there. But by the numbers of them it's not really, the same... M IG's are not in decline either.

I could say the same thing about the "gilled" goat from Vietnam.

Or Antarctic Penguins, are they considered rare, because that's the only place in the world you'll find them? uh, ok guys...

"Rare" to a biologist is something that is only a few hundred to a short few thousand strong and clearly declining. Possibly on it's way to exstinction. Any of these animals are threatened currently by changing conditions and man made pollution. Changing their habitat. However, none are on their way to becoming extinct as of yet.

(Sigh) A matter of distinct opinion, I suppose.
Certainly not worth pushing further. We all have them.

However,
Unlike those that visited areas and possibly study them whenever they can on "pleasure" trips. Logging in an unknown amount of hours diving each year... I've taken facts from people that are not collecting anything for sale. But studying. Real Biologists interested in conservation, not opening the flood gates for people to ruin areas they are struggling to protect. Numbers and conditions of things are not always reported accurately by various parties. For various reasons.

The Black Tang was discovered over 135 years ago. (It's lived way longer before that as well)

I don't see population decline (the math documented since then) and since it was found in a time that was challenging to dive and troll for fish with the technology back then.. it seems unlikely the species level has changed that much since. Unless you want to give man credit for affecting it. Yet since the area is so remote it's hard to see that as well. If Gunthers men found it back then, try talking to someone that stays in the area regularly. oh, thats difficult though, since a lot of people don't go there. The fact is believe it or not, even in Large numbers, people don't always know where to look for something all the time. The ocean has it's secrets that are hard to unfold. If he found and studied it back then, it seems unlikely that population has declined so, to: you hardly ever see one currently. Bit of a short time span. Even though 135 years may seem long to us humans. Undisturbed by us... for quite a long time.. It's a hard sell to buy. Especially from people who want to sell it and those pleasure diving not living with the fish at all times.

Basslets:
To date there have been no successful captive breedings of Basslets.
Yes, this certainly would help the hobby distribute them eventually for a lower cost.

However, the efforts since the '60s by people have not been enough to make it happen. The fish is attains a high price because no one is interested enough to go after it more aggressively. 'An why would they? They could make the cost go down for the market. But how much would they gain from a fish, that after it happened would still not be interesting enough to purchase enough to justify the long costs. It could be done. But it's not that lucrative with the effort of an undertaking to make it attractive.

This still says nothing about it's true numbers in the wild. It's not as rare as you think it is. This has to do with collection "efforts". Not how many are truly out there. If you based rarity on "fact" of what is there and capable of being there, you would know reality in the habitat is quite different than what the "hobby" that has a hard time acquiring enough of it, wants you to believe.

There are independant people with Billions of dollars, some want to build spacecrafts. Others ARE building Subs. Not to mention the things we have already accomplished in this world and out of it to date. Almost anything is possible to pull off. But unless it has something to do with "making money" it's not explored far enough as far accomplishing it. Thus there are many things we have not found, don't know the answers to. As well as things you are told are "rare", but we have barely begun to even open the door to knowing the real answers of what's out there and how much there is. Rare is sometimes to "our knowledge" as the public knows it. Not neccessarily the actual case with all things.

Prehistoric sharks are swimming the ocean at depths that we really can't go much to explore enough or fast enough for evidence of more of them because of the difficulties in doing so. Uh.. they were "exstinct"... maybe it's just "rare" now.. or maybe we are full of bologna because we really don't know the facts as they truly are... Just because you don't see enough(supposedly) of something.(ex: Tangs) Doesn't mean they are rare. There could could untold numbers living and thriving. With some species of fish and animals, possibly for millions of years.

The ocean covers most of the globe. Has anyone ever tried going from place to place to another and spotting something before it moves..? LOL you guys make me laugh. :) The best equipment in the world may not get you to see that school of black Tang that's no longer there. However, somebody else can get a different experience when they go down sometime or somewhere else, just by chance.
 
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Interesting. This fish seems to have a range from the south of India- to malaysia up to Japan and on to the north of Australia. Article below copied from the ecological society of Japan:

奥野 良之助

OKUNO Ryonosuke

神戸市立須磨水族館

Suma Aquarium of Kobe City

SCHOOLING BEHAVIORS OF THE BLACK TANG

The social behaviors of Black Tang, one of the most common tangs or surgeon fishes along the southern coast of Japan, were studied both in the sea (Tanabe Bay, Wakayama Prefecture) and in a large tank (in the Suma Aquarium) in 1955,1956 and 1961. In the open sea, relatively large schools (average number of one school is about 20 individuals) were found on the large and deep offshore reefs, while schools on the small and shallow inshore reefs were small (average : about three individuals) and there were found even solitary and resided, or territorial individuals. In the large tank, ten individuals of this fish were brought to the tank one by one. The first to fifth specimens resided under the rock or rock shade and showed territorial behavior, whereas the next five specimens did not resided anywhere, but made schools and hovered. Moreover, three specimens out of five territorial fish joined these schooling individuals resolving their territories. From these facts, it seems that the social behavior type of Black Tang is apparently effected by its population density as well as by the habitat condition, whether it is large or limited. -end

This fish seems to move / migrate at times and does not just have Christmas Island as the species biotope. As I have said, No one always knows where to look. Searching the Ocean is like finding a needle in a haystack. When you find something, it's not always there all the time.
 
I'm glad we can make you laugh, DBS.
Or Antarctic Penguins, are they considered rare, because that's the only place in the world you'll find them?
why generalize... it really depends on the species you're talking about, doesn't it?
Not only does species matter but so does natural range of any species, so yes- a Penguin could be considered rare and you could expect to pay a great deal of money for one.

Population numbers aside, the bottom line is that until someone comes up with an easier/better/cheaper way to get a Candy Basslet to the potential consumer the current price isn't likely to drop and at this point in time, (with the rising prices of oil), they're more likely to pay more in the future (until captive bred are available).
Until the current situation changes, collectors and retailers will be competing to see who can collect and sell deepwater basslets the cheapest.
 
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re: Black Tang populations

re: Black Tang populations

This fish seems to move / migrate at times and does not just have Christmas Island as the species biotope. As I have said, No one always knows where to look. Searching the Ocean is like finding a needle in a haystack. When you find something, it's not always there all the time.
so how does one make the assertion this species isn't rare?
 
As far as the price trend on conditions. I couldn't agree with you more Gary.

It's not going to change much now. Probably only get worse based on those factors.

There is a fine line with some sellers as far as expensive based on "their" experience with the availability at times. -And just going overboard marking up something that is "rare" in the hobby.

If you want to spend it on one, go for it. It's definetly a great fish.
No argument there at all.

But not important enough to some, to spend often a high price further inflated by peoples greed. From the beginning(collecting it) all the way through making the LFS or online site pay what the supplier asks for such stuff.

Afterall, if I had license where needed and my own boat living offshore because the area was conveniently my home, I could just go get some for way less of a sacrifice. You know some collectors do. I, just as many others are not going to do that of course. But hardly seems worth the price to be paid for however inaccessible they are "cost wise" for suppliers to get enough of these... to end up paying that for the fish as consumer. Just silly...

I would love to have a pair. However, depending on where on the high end price is at, I can think of plenty more things to spend the cash on instead.
The synopsis of where MOST of the common people are going to be at with this, if they all admit honestly.

'an I still don't see "rare" appearing in this fishes "biological study" anytime soon.
 
so how does one make the assertion this species isn't rare?

Because many documented reports that are researchable from multiple countries, studies and biologists don't assert that it is rare.

As a matter of fact, many studies report seeing Large numbers of them in various areas. As well as the spots they are sited in vary across wide distances you could not even imagine how far between. From the southwest of India(Between it and africa) , to indo pacific and sea of Japan.

If the species was so "rare" in numbers it could not be documented in so many varied geographical areas in being seen in large schools at various times.

Sometimes spread out & "elusive" may be a better term than rare.

Collection is more difficult, making it rarer for the hobby. Not the wild areas it inhabits.

Some suppliers say only Christmas Island,(Because that is where they get some) I've seen ecological reports documenting otherwise. I'm not going to copy them all. However, I tend to believe independent nature studiers having nothing to do with the home aquarium trade, more than hobby suppliers.

You should consider not believing everything they tell you.
Have an investigative opinion. One that investigates statements outside of just hobby source people.
 
Arguing over semantics here...

Rare = rare in the trade; not necessarily rare in the ocean.
exactly.

additionally: just because large schools (20 individuals is a large school?) of Black Tangs have been sighted doesn't qualify them as rare.

Regarding the Candy Basslet: one might correctly call a species that only occurs in the tropical western Atlantic between Florida and South America inside the crevices of deepwater reefs "rare".

How much are (SCUBA) re-breathers?
 
I agree entirely Scott. Thanks for the statement.

My point of view was that "rare in the hobby" which it is-

Does not equate to "rare in the world it lives in".

But "rare in the hobby" seems to be clouding some peoples opinion
on what a rare fish is.

I can see you understand. It's just hard to getting some to understand the difference.

My opinion was, even though it is rare in the hobby, I don't see in paying a lot of money for something that is plentiful in it's natural environment.

That's all. Gary, despite differences we both share a love for the nature of things. Or at least how it artificially looks in our aquariums. I hope we can both at least have peace with that. It's COOL :cool:
 
exactly.

additionally: just because large schools (20 individuals is a large school?) of Black Tangs have been sighted doesn't qualify them as rare.

Regarding the Candy Basslet: one might correctly call a species that only occurs in the tropical western Atlantic between Florida and South America inside the crevices of deepwater reefs "rare".

How much are (SCUBA) re-breathers?


Nice, Gary!
 
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