Good water quality, is it more than the common parameters?

[ukrimless]

Hi Randy & Bill

I am aware of the issues Darren is fighting with his tank and it seems that a large amount of reefers running low nutrient systems in the UK are also suffering similar problems.

Unfortunately, I do not have any scientific data to offer, but being in the aquarium trade, I am continually hearing reports of people loosing corals over the last month.

Our main concerns are, that this appears to be a seasonal issue which coincides with when the pollen levels are high.

I personally know of around 10 or more very succesful reefkeepers that have suffered the same fate over the last few weeks and have discussed the issue with many of them at length. The Uk forum is also a wash with similar stories.
This time last year was exactly the same, TBH we have been dreading this momment in time, prior to the bumbe bees and tree blossom appearing, some of these tanks were winning TOTM in the UK, so it is not a lack of reefkeeping skill.
This year seems to be worse than last and the scary thing is the probem got worse as the season progressed and the grass pollens raised their ugly heads.

I appreciate you guys deal with scientific facts and assumptions can be a dangerous thing, but as a long standing hobbiest, it seems like too much of a coincidnce that the weather (pollen) is not playing a direct roll.

My fear is that if the pollen is entering the water, could this be impacting the sugar chains within our reefs?
If this is the case then details have been posted by Darren showing the direct impact this can have on our corals, normally fatal!

Assuming you may agree with the above possibility, could you recommend a way to help remove these excess sugars from our previously balanced systems?

Water changes do not seem to make a big differnce, strange as diluting the sugars would seem like the obvious cure, could it be the water is saturated with sugar again too quickly or has the damage already been done, with regards to the bad beacteria becoming dominant ?

Also knowing how sugars can drive pathogenic bacteria within our corals, what would be the best way to bring back a more probiotic environment to our systems?


Your scientific opinions are much appreciated, as this is proving to be a difficult time for a lot here in the UK.

Kind Regards

Vince

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've not heard of this issue before, but it seems like an interesting idea to follow up on.

I don't doubt the possibility that pollen could be a problem, but it is not clear to me how it causes such an effect. Pollen could do all kinds of positive and negative things, from feeding corals to plugging tiny openings in creatures like sponges. Maybe the corals eat them and then get internally irritated.

That said, why are you focusing on sugars? Pollen seems to be high in protein and may not be all that different than fish foods in basic protein/carbohydrate/etc.

Even if it were high in something that encourage bacterial growth, when people intentionally drive bacteria with organic additions (acetate, glucose, ethanol, etc.), there is rarely a big loss of corals with a reasonable addition. So I wouldn't jump on bacteria growth as the only likely cause for what you observe.

I would point out that other things also may change in spring. Daylight length, humidity and evaporation rates, tank temperatures, etc.

 

[billsreef]

I think if it was pollen, we'd be seeing the same thing in many other parts of the world. Bacterial and fungal spores from the air have been implicated in coral disease in the wild, so considering warmer temps and humidity that comes with spring, that would be a strong possibility to look at.

 

[ukrimless]

Hi Randy

Many thanks for your fast response.

It most certainly is an ineresting subject, that I feel needs looking at in more depth and any further input from yourself would be very much appreciated.

I hear what you are saying about the effects having some positives and I believe at stages these have been seen, water clarity has been very clear for a week or two before corals showed distress, but accumilation of what ever is causing the issue seems to be very fast.

My reasoning for looking towards the sugars as are due to several things observed:

1: Typically Cyno is also triggered with the elevated levels, I have witnessed lots of people calling within the space of days, complaining of cyno, that had not suffered for a long period of time.

2: The SPS seem to show a darkening in the coral, almost to black patches at times, I have witnessed a very pink stylo turn almost black within a day, starting on one side of the coral, it spreads from one side to the other and then bails out, I am seeing what appears to be a mass population of bacteria increasing within the coral.

3: euphyllia glabrescens, also suffered brown jelly. This was triggered upon changing my po4 media, it seems like having a small amount of po4, relieved the symptoms on the corals, but allows the cyno to take a foot hold, could the cyno be using the excess sugars (assumption) keeping them away from the bacteria on the coral?

Sorry for assuming so much, but it is difficut to do anything else, when you do not have out and out proof.

My thoughts also lead me to believe that whilst carbon dosing is common place and effective, when people push it too much, they also see a decline in the health of their corals.

I also question if low nutrient tanks are being effected faster, as I have to say these are experianced reefers suffering, it may be that those not so exprianced are simply not seeing the symptoms and are putting loses down to in experiance.

Maybe as you say it is not the sugars? I have found an interesting paper discussing toxic substances in pollen, this is effecting bee populaions.
Here is the link: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/107/10/1859.full.pdf

I don't expect you to read all of this, but the extracts below may shed some light:

The toxins found in pollen include lactose, raffinose, stachyose, xylose,
arabinose, galactose, galacturonic acid,
glucuronic acid, and pectin.

Bees will collect nectar to dilute the toxicity of the above.

Maybe you can draw some information from my thoughts, I certainly hope so


Regards Vince

 

[ukrimless]

I think if it was pollen, we'd be seeing the same thing in many other parts of the world. Bacterial and fungal spores from the air have been implicated in coral disease in the wild, so considering warmer temps and humidity that comes with spring, that would be a strong possibility to look at.

Biil

You would imagine the effects would be world wide, but it is strange how certain countries seem to be being effected more.

Interestingly a good friend of mine is a Doctor here in the UK, he has informed me that the UK and Belgium have had a massive increase in people suffering from Asthma over the last two years and that the surgery has been over run in the last 4 weeks with people suffering Hayfeaver.

We have also just been hit with a dust storm come in from the Sahara desert, this made the news two weeks back.
I hear the temp and humidity thoughts, but these are things that are being monitored and currently have been stable, all be it when the temps do rise, I can see this having a big negative response, driving bacteria even faster.

Thanks

Vince

 

[billsreef]

We have also just been hit with a dust storm come in from the Sahara desert, this made the news two weeks back.

Some coral diseases in the Carribean have been linked to fungus in Saharan dust. Other elements in that dust have has been questioned as possibly adding to coral stress.

 

[Reefvet]

Biil

You would imagine the effects would be world wide, but it is strange how certain countries seem to be being effected more.

Yes you would. Particularly since the U.S. is experiencing record pollen levels right now.

I live in a city known for constant high levels. We are at record levels and I've heard nothing of these issues. I never close the windows and my tanks are fine despite the pollen. Me, not so much. I'm suffering from the effects.

 

[ukrimless]

Yes you would. Particularly since the U.S. is experiencing record pollen levels right now.

I live in a city known for constant high levels. We are at record levels and I've heard nothing of these issues. I never close the windows and my tanks are fine despite the pollen. Me, not so much. I'm suffering from the effects.

I feel for you mate, Hay Fever is a pain in the jacks !

Please tell us a little about your system, maybe you are doing something to avoid the issue?

I'm sure he will not mind me mentioning, but Sanjay Joshi has also posted that he has seen the effects this year, as he did last.
Also falling directly in line with the rise in pollen levels ?

Look forward to hearing about your system, I could find nothing about it searching ?


All the best

Vince

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

Let's keep this thread on topic. Thanks!

 

[Tony B (UK)]

How about adding air intake filters to protein skimmers?

 

[Dami]

I'm interested around carbonate. If enough DOC could accumulate without prevention and it's effects on testing. If it can falsify carbonate testing - along with bacterial influence and temperature during the spring time could falling carbonate be attributed to basal necrosis? Is it related to metabolism as a product of pollutant rather than pollutant alone.

 

[Azmanjim]

Further to Dami's question, especially preventative part. Would there be anything other than GAC, skimmers and water changes that could prevent a build up of DOC?

Could his theory also manifest itself as necrosis starting at the tips of the coral as the OP is experiencing??

 

[Dami]

There is no mention of recession in the tips??

 

[Azmanjim]

Oh sorry, it is stated on hi original thread on another forum

 

[ukrimless]

Hi Tony,

Something I have done mate, unfortunately the surface area of the tank seems to attract enough pollen in its self.

You only need to leave a bucket of water outside overnight and you will see the pollen floating on the surface.



Dami,

I don't believe this to be a contributing factor, simply because, it is such an instant effect, with people calling up all within the same week.

The systems have been running very stable prior to this season.

Information is coming forward from a group of advanced reefers, that run a Whatsapp thread, I would say 80% of the guys have seen issues, some are running Fauna Marin products, others alternative methods.
This conversation is not about a product, but the possible issues being caused by high pollen levels.

I believe we are coming closer to an answer, as we have professional help investigating this further. I will keep you informed with our findings.


Thanks

Vince

 

[alessandro]

Someone of the affected tanks use salt produced from evaporation from natural Red Sea water?

 

[ukrimless]

Someone of the affected tanks use salt produced from evaporation from natural Red Sea water?

Yes I believe so.

Please tell me what you know

 

[alessandro]

Yes I believe so.

Please tell me what you know

The only things I know is that I have the same strange problems and I am investigating to find the cause.
I have found some correlations with tank using the same salt of mine (blue bucket) and I am wondering if f the cause can be linked to specific salt or salts of the group using the same source of supply which as we know is the same for all the salts that use that type of natural salt.

 

[Amberaldus]

All the focus seems to be on the pollen itself.

The pollen may have an effect but has anyone thought about all the fungicides, insecticides and who knows what else the pollen brings to the tank.

Remember all the studies about the decimation of honey bees and the huge number of toxins now in pollen.

Could the pollen be the delivery system for whatever is causing the issues?

 

[ukrimless]

Amberaldus

Having researched much more, I couldn't agree more.

Proteolytic enzymes are present within pollen, these are going to kick off a whole new ball game in our tanks.

Question is, how do we avoid them ?

Or can we halt them once in our systems ?

Maybe Ozone or hydrogen peroxide ? Something I would not normally look at, as prior to this issue, they have been completely unnecessary.

Maybe someone knows an easier way to block such an enzyme ?