Graphic (beware)

Before leaching I would guess that the tang got stuck against the intake of the pump and eventually fell of or something to the like... it looks like a good bit of physical damage to it.
 
Just a side thought... what inverts do you have in the tank? You dont happen to have a brittle starfish or something do you?
 
a long time ago i lost him......well u guys gota remember i only have a picture of the tang...i lost the hawkfish too....he looked perfectly fine ...his whole body was like white and his eyes were glazed over...but he was stuck in the opposite corner in between the rocks just like the tang but opposite side...explain both of them on the same night?
 
Did you cover the entrances to the power heads? How powerful are the power heads? I worry you don't realize the scale difference. If you were as large as the fish in the aquarium could you swim away from the power heads?

You do realize all the good things you can kill off by dumping your rocks in freshwater right? And the main reasons we have the rock in there?

My best guess, both fish were found under rocks... what about the new power heads causing a rock slide?

"he was like stuckbetween two rocks"
"stuck between the rock half in the sand"

When was the last time you added anything wet to the tank from either the store or another hobbyists? Marine velvet shows little to no outward signs and the fish show up dead over night.

Like Al said, what is the temp? Have you checked the temp at night time when the lights aren't making any heat your home may be a lot cooler? Someone leave a window open for 2 minutes?(OK, maybe it would take longer then 2 minutes, but it is freaking cold out there)

"explain both of them on the same night?" hawkfish was in love, the tang went first, the hawk saw it and did himself in.(or died of a tiny tiny heart break)

Let us help you figure this out. Don't take any of our questions as insulting, we are trying to get to the bottom of things and figure out the real cause.

Jonathon
 
1 fish maybe but not both.
Actually if the sand bed was disturbed there is usually some really messed up gases buried in there. Unsettling the substrate is in fact killing your nitrate filter. If you let oxygenated water in your sand bed then you are killing the nitrate eating bacteria. Also a more lethal factor is that you will be leeching out sulfur and anoxic gases that can kill the life within your system. Both the gas is deadly and the reduction in ph after the release of the gas. Combine the reduction in ph with the natural reduction in ph when the lights go out and you could experience a large drop.
Nitrogen cycle in reef aquaria refers to the process by which biological waste by-products are converted from toxic substances to harmless compounds through the actions of bacteria. In a properly setup tank, this process occurs naturally through the actions of bacteria that colonize different areas of the tank. Establishing this process in the first place is known as 'cycling' the tank.

There is probably nothing that causes a new hobbyist more consternation than dealing with getting a new tank properly cycled. It is the first hurdle that the hobbyist must confront and successfully overcome in their quest for the perfect reef tank. Although the science behind what is going on is quite complicated, the process can be understood and controlled with only a basic understanding of the principals involved.

First, an understanding of the steps involved in the nitrogen cycle is required in order for the hobbyist to successfully monitor the cycle and know when the tank has successfully completed its cycle.

The nitrogen cycle is composed of 4 basic steps.

Ammonia: Ammonia (NH3) initially enters the system via biological waste. These wastes may come from fish poop or dead organisms which are decaying in the tank. These wastes mineralise into the compound ammonia. Ammonia is a very toxic compound. Bacteria which colonise rock and sand surfaces utilize ammonia as food and convert it into a new compound called nitrite. Ammonia should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.

Nitrite: Nitrite (NO2) is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. Fortunately, there are other types of bacteria that also colonise sand and rock surfaces which consume nitrites as food and convert them into nitrates. Nitrites should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.

Nitrate: Nitrate (NO3) is a relatively harmless compound. Nitrates tend to accumulate in the reef system if it is not setup correctly. Fish can tolerate fairly high nitrate levels, but most corals do not. Nitrate is also a plant fertilizer, so its accumulation can lead to algae problems. The brute force way to control nitrates is to do large water changes and therefore dilute the nitrate levels, but there is a better, more natural way to deal with nitrates. Nitrates in a fully cycled tank should ideally remain at zero, but up to about 20ppm is acceptable. Higher levels may lead to issues with coral health or algae growth in the tank. Some corals may actually benefit from the higher nitrate levels, but they are atypical.

Nitrogen: In a properly setup reef tank, the nitrates can be further processed by special types of bacteria which convert the nitrates into harmless nitrogen gases which escape into the atmosphere. When the process includes this step, the nitrogen cycle is completed and the tank will maintain zero nitrates without significant water changes or the requirement for specialized external equipment to remove it from the system. The key to this final step is to provide oxygen poor areas of sand or rock. The bacteria which perform this last step of the process only live in oxygen poor (anaerobic) areas of the tank. The surest way to establish these anaerobic areas is to include a sand bed that has sufficient depth and sufficiently small particle size to restrict water flow in the lower areas of the bed.

Establishing the nitrogen cycle in the reef tank

It should be somewhat obvious that to establish the bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrites, a source of ammonia must be added to the tank. Once these bacteria start producing nitrites, the bacteria which convert nitrites into nitrates can start to establish themselves and of course, once nitrates are available, the nitrate converting bacteria can start to establish themselves, providing the hobbyist has taken steps to provide a suitable oxygen poor home for them.

The 'trick' to establishing the nitrogen cycle in the tank is to do it without endangering any tank inhabitants. This generally means that the part of the cycle which converts ammonia to nitrate should be established before any specimens are added. Fortunately a ready supply of ammonia is introduced with the live rock that is introduced into the system. As the live rock goes through its curing process, the decaying life forms on the rock provide the starter fuel for ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria to colonize the rock. When live rock is being cured and this process is getting setup, toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite can form and specimens cannot be introduced until it is verified that both ammonia and nitrite have dropped to zero levels through the use of test kits. Typically, while this process in occurring, the hobbyist will measure an increase in ammonia and then it will start to drop as ammonia consuming bacteria start to grow. The hobbyist will then measure an increase in nitrites as the ammonia gets converted to nitrite. As the nitrite consuming bacteria start to grow, the nitrite level will also start to fall. When both ammonia and nitrite levels fall to zero levels, the cycling is complete. Typically, the nitrates will be high at this stage and the water that was involved in establishing the cycle should be replaced with new saltwater.

Once the live rock is cured, the basic tank cycle has been established and the live rock can be stacked in its final arrangement in the tank. Even though the basic bacteria types have been established, the number of bacteria will fluctuate depending on the bioload of the system. Also, there is probably not much bacterial colonization of the sand bed at this point. Therefore it is important to increase the bioload of the system slowly so that the bacteria colonies can grow to match the load of the system. If a lot of fish are added to a newly cycled tank, the sudden increase in waste products will cause a new mini cycle to start all over and since there are specimens in the tank, they are at risk of death or injury due to the ammonia or nitrite spikes that will occur. Corals and clams do not generally add bioload to the system, so they can be added more freely than fish or other critters that require constant feeding.

The final part of the nitrogen cycle (converting nitrates to nitrogen gas) has to be established after the tank is setup. The first thing that a hobbyist must do is to ensure that the reef tank provides oxygen poor regions in the live rock and sand. Old school was that this was to be avoided at all costs due to the concern over noxious gases, such as hydrogen sulfide, being formed. This concern seems to be overly exaggerated and can probably be ignored for the most part. It is important however, that once these oxygen poor zones are created, that they not be unduly disturbed.

To setup these anaerobic regions I recommend the following:


Provide a substrate of sand which is no larger than 1-2mm and which can be finer. With this size of sand, a sand bed with approximately 2" of depth should be provided. This is sufficient to ensure that the deeper areas of the sand bed will become anaerobic and allow nitrate processing bacteria to colonize it. This is an area in which DSB's (deep sand beds) are often recommended. However the same thing can be accomplished without the 4-6" deep sand beds which are recommended by DSB advocates.


Going against common wisdom in the literature these days, placing live rock directly on top of the substrate also helps to create these anaerobic regions. Many hobbyist spend a lot of effort to provide frameworks to keep the live rock off the sand to allow full circulation, but I believe this effort is misguided. For instance, I see people suspending their live rock on PVC pipe so that they get full water circulation and then they install a DSB to establish oxygen poor zones. Seems counter productive to me. The same thing can be accomplished by placing the live rock directly on a 2" deep sand bed. It is easier and it occupies less of the tank depth.

There are also some things to avoid that can tend to impair the nitrate conversion process:


Do not use a wet/dry filter with biomedia such as bioballs. It has been established that these filters do a good job of converting wastes into nitrate, but their use tends to cause nitrates to accumulate in the system. The reason why is not well understood, but many hobbyist have been able to cure nitrate problems by removing the biomedia from their filters. One school of thought is that when nitrates are created in the sand bed, they are created near the nitrate converting bacteria in the lower regions of the sand bed and therefore get processed more readily. It is recommended that anyone who is running a wet/dry and who has nitrate accumulation problems should consider slowly removing the biomedia over the course of a couple of weeks to give time for the system to adjust.


Do not use coarse crushed coral for the substrate. The large particle size allows too much water circulation which does not allow the necessary anaerobic regions to develop.


Do not disturb the deeper regions of the sand bed any more than necessary. This obviously disturbs the anaerobic regions. This typically means that you don't want to use a siphon to clean the sand bed. If you must for some reason, try to limit this actively to a small region of the tank only (10%?) so that the majority of the filtration process stays intact. A light stirring of the upper portion of the sand bed through the actions of sand sifter creatures or through the actions of the hobbyist are fine.


Do not overfeed the tank. Once a tank is established, the primary source of inputs into the nitrogen cycle are introduced through feeding of the tank. Although a reef tank does not need to be starved, like early authors tend to state, feeding excessive amounts of food can aggravate the process and should be looked at as a variable that can be controlled if nitrates tend to accumulate. Some people like to feed heavily and this can often be tolerated as long as the food is increased slowly so that the bacteria colonies have time to grow to a size sufficient to process the increased bioload.
Click to expand...

This article was found on the web and unfortunately no author mentioned
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11844070#post11844070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by a1amap
Actually if the sand bed was disturbed there is usually some really messed up gases buried in there. Unsettling the substrate is in fact killing your nitrate filter. If you let oxygenated water in your sand bed then you are killing the nitrate eating bacteria. ...
Click to expand...

I find that doubtful, in this case. Emo has a 2" sandbed.

This would apply for the anaerobic portion of a sandbed. But, how anaerobic can a 2" sandbed get?
 
I would leave your tank fishless and start QTing every fish you get. Starve any disease that is in your tank, while you QT your fish for 6 weeks. I'd set up the 125g and leave it be with nothing in it, then use the 55g as a QT tank.
 
I may not know much yet. But you might want to consider curing your rock before you put it into your 125g. The LR from your 55 i mean.
 
Also in Emo's defense his aquascape was sturdy. But you never know the rock is on a deterioration cycle itself. But how 2 fish one night. I vote disease/parasite.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11844088#post11844088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tat2tillidie
so when i do a water change i shouldnt stir up the gravel?
Click to expand...

If it's gravel as in crushed coral it needs to be vacumed out to remove deitrius <sp?> but should not be stirred up per se. Sand beds should never be stirred for the reasons Al mentioned above.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11846274#post11846274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cdangel0
If it's gravel as in crushed coral it needs to be vacumed out to remove deitrius <sp?> but should not be stirred up per se. Sand beds should never be stirred for the reasons Al mentioned above.
Click to expand...

2" is shallow but the lower inch will have some gases. I stir my sand bed but only a small part at a time. That way any bacteria that is lost being exposed to O2 can be re populated from the rest of the sandbed.
I believe it to be a problem of too much change in too short of time. No offense Emo.
Think about all the change that happened since 1-26.
1. Algae removed (removed a nitrate remover)
1a. Source of the fodd for the algae never addressed.
2. Rocks were soaked/washed with soda water (Killed the "live" bacteria in the rock)
3. Failed to do regular water changes (nitrates and nutrient rich water not diluted)
4. Changed Flow (stressed fish, may have tumbled the rocks)
5. Increased flow stirred up the sandbed. (Killed bacteria, nutrients released into the water column)
6. Fish added no Qt (May have interduced disease)


Joe I think the damage you see on the tang may have been caused post-mortem from being thrown into the rocks by the Koralias
 
Think about all the change that happened since 1-26.
1. Algae removed (removed a nitrate remover)
added cheato and some other kind of macro algea to help with this issue

1a. Source of the fodd for the algae never addressed.
bad dorm water...really bad

2. Rocks were soaked/washed with soda water (Killed the "live" bacteria in the rock)
they died before the rock was cleand

3. Failed to do regular water changes (nitrates and nutrient rich water not diluted)
nitrates are at 5....imma check with a new test kit tonight in case mine is wrong

4. Changed Flow (stressed fish, may have tumbled the rocks)
rocks didnt move at all.. and flow changed but not really i put the koralias where the powerheads were...so just a little more flow
and the fish were between the rocks not like smashed in there...if i could take a pic i would but they arent there ne more obviously

5. Increased flow stirred up the sandbed. (Killed bacteria, nutrients released into the water column)
i think i was a little off when i said 2" in some spots in like 1/2" some its like an 1" i just said 2 cause i was guesstimating..(not good with guessing)

6. Fish added no Qt (May have interduced disease)
possibly...

but what really gets me is why not the wrasse why the hawkfish and the tang....ie the reason for assuming something killed them becasue the wrasse burrows at night


Joe I think the damage you see on the tang may have been caused post-mortem from being thrown into the rocks by the Koralias.....possible but y on different ends of the tank...like same positioning...inbetween rocks...and boh were at odd places for them to just blow into...
 
and srry if seem short tempered on the issue...i dont mean it if so...and im not taking any bodys thoughts and opinions personally..im just frustrated that i lost two fish and just when i thought my tank was starting to come around
 
To quote one of my favorite literary charachters, Forest Gump, "Sometimes, it happens." Give a few weeks for things to settle down, keep an eye on params, you'll be okay.
 
well i just checked my parameters with ryans brand new test kit which i know works and my test was exactly the same as last night...except i lied little i was thinking it was 2 on the nitrate test its actually 20( i rounded up when i said 5 to give u worse then my tank was but still) 20 is norm...sooo i just asked joe and he was clueless but what would be yalls next step...cause i really dont know what to do nemore...i lose every fish i get
 
i think you might want to stop adding fish for a few months....i had a time where i was losing fish every time i added them, they would last a week or three and suddenly die overnight, and this was in a tank that was at least 9-10 months "mature" with other fish and shrimp, etc...living happily and are STILL alive

so we just stopped adding anything at all, just regular water changes, regular lighting schedule, etc.......for months we have not added a thing

recently added a couple anthias and a cleaner shrimp and they are doing well

just a thought, you pretty much have destroyed the balance of things with everything that has gone on, i think it just needs to sit and mellow....
 
^^ well im getting this 125 tommorrow so imma let this tank just run and get settled for a while til i start adding ne thing other then what i have...thanks...(i hope my 55 fits under this thing so i can use it as a sump!)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
What kind of eel is this??
Replies
5
Views
157
wvned
wvned
Drummer98
Rock flower eating my box fish?
Replies
1
Views
232
griss
griss
J
Flameback
Replies
2
Views
163
OrionN
OrionN
R
Is it aiptasia or maybe hydroids?
Replies
3
Views
105
griss
griss
NancyT3
Help with Snail Anxiety
Replies
7
Views
360
NancyT3
NancyT3
Back
Top