Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
- Thread starter mwp
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Ok, First, back on track, this thread has some awesome pics and a great video.. Kudos man! That's some sweet stuff!
Second. In regards to culling. Lets think of it like this. Maybe, just MAYBE 1 out of every 10,000 clownfish eggs laid in a reef become an adult. For arguments sake, we'll say they are Maroon clowns, and ~ 1000 eggs per nest (I know, can be larger / smaller, I'm just doing simple math). Thats 1 fish survived for 10 nests laid. In captivity, we MUST cull. I know good breeders can make 85% at times, so it is an absolute necessity, and one that happens in nature.. If you think culling is bad, perhaps the Fish Breeding Forum is not for you. I don't like the thought of culling, but it IS a necessary evil.
Ok Folks-
I've tried to allow everyones opinion to stand.
Everyones opinion is just that --an opinion. Be it right, wrong or different. WE do not go after people because their opinion is different than yours or mine.
I've been asked to do something about this thread, therefore- we are all adults here and I will allow a 24hr cool off period on it.
I will only allow posts on here that have to do w/ green mandarin breeding.
If there is a philosophical debate -- I edit/remove posts and lock it down.
I hate to do something like this on a thread w/ so much great info on it, but I also have to ensure we follow the rules.
Nagel- I appreciate your comments
frank
I've tried to allow everyones opinion to stand.
Everyones opinion is just that --an opinion. Be it right, wrong or different. WE do not go after people because their opinion is different than yours or mine.
I've been asked to do something about this thread, therefore- we are all adults here and I will allow a 24hr cool off period on it.
I will only allow posts on here that have to do w/ green mandarin breeding.
If there is a philosophical debate -- I edit/remove posts and lock it down.
I hate to do something like this on a thread w/ so much great info on it, but I also have to ensure we follow the rules.
Nagel- I appreciate your comments
frank
And to set it on the right foot 
Have you given any thought to foods for the mandarin fry? I know some have been successfully raised, though its not common. Are you thinking copepods? I would think rotifers might not do the trick, especially if the fry settle quickly and start picking the rocks..
Keep us updated.. Captive Bred mandarins who are eating prepared foods are an AWESOME alternative to the wild-caughts that are difficult, if not impossible, to change their eating habits.
Have you given any thought to foods for the mandarin fry? I know some have been successfully raised, though its not common. Are you thinking copepods? I would think rotifers might not do the trick, especially if the fry settle quickly and start picking the rocks..
Keep us updated.. Captive Bred mandarins who are eating prepared foods are an AWESOME alternative to the wild-caughts that are difficult, if not impossible, to change their eating habits.
mwp
In Memoriam
Wow...I come back and this thread is "cookin'" - let me address some issues.
Reefkeeper 27439, I dumped the seahorse's red shrimp - there were 6 of them and I needed the specimen cup I was holding them in as my only available vessle to try to incubate the eggs. It was an honest mistake as I had a net right there at the sink to POUR THEM THROUGH and then FEED THEM TO THE SEAHORSES. They were DOOMED to die either way...my intent for including this was to convey my utter EXCITEMENT to the point of a touch of "carelessness".
As for why the mandarin that you bought 2 years ago died 2 days in...well I can forward a number of guesses but who really knows. Got picked on by tankmates? Was in poor health when you bought it? Was poorly acclimated and died from stress? The "White Slime" is obviously a sign of decay.
OK, I'll do another post to this thread to handle the rest
MP
Reefkeeper 27439, I dumped the seahorse's red shrimp - there were 6 of them and I needed the specimen cup I was holding them in as my only available vessle to try to incubate the eggs. It was an honest mistake as I had a net right there at the sink to POUR THEM THROUGH and then FEED THEM TO THE SEAHORSES. They were DOOMED to die either way...my intent for including this was to convey my utter EXCITEMENT to the point of a touch of "carelessness".
As for why the mandarin that you bought 2 years ago died 2 days in...well I can forward a number of guesses but who really knows. Got picked on by tankmates? Was in poor health when you bought it? Was poorly acclimated and died from stress? The "White Slime" is obviously a sign of decay.
OK, I'll do another post to this thread to handle the rest
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, so back to the Mandarin Spawn. I did what I could with the time I had guys...the results are less than my hopes 
The night of the spawn, mere hours before we left for MN, I had the 10 gallon tank ready for the Apogon leptacanthus that were "DUE" to be released that night...thus one of the reasons I was sitting watching the tanks in the first place. The larvae never came (and were released into the tank while we were away, doomed to become food for the other fish in the tank). The tank was full of Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Rotifers and a small unidentified copepod that flourishes within my rotifer cultures. I figured this "soup" was likely NOT the place for eggs to incubate successfully.
So yes, they went into a large specimen cup hanging in the parent's tank. I ran an airline in with rigid tubing to a bottom corner to create some sort of circulation in the tank...adjustments were pain but I think I set it 'OK'. HINDsight being what it is, perhaps an egg tumbler may have been more successful.
Well, upon returning, most all of the eggs are fungused. There's also white stringy stuff on the air tubing. It doesn't look like ANY are viable..no little eyes or anything. But I don't know how long they should take to develop and hatch either, and a few seem to be perhaps still alive...I'm going to wait a little bit longer (maybe until tomorrow evening) and see what if anything changes/develops.
The only info I really have to go on is a couple relatively vague articles...i.e. the one in Coral's Magazine - have any of you read it and noticed that some of the times & measurements given don't match up? I'm talking like 3-5 inches at 8 weeks or something like that - I"m assuming these are details that got jumbled in translation.
As far as first foods are concerned, my gut was to utilize my existing rotifer/copepod cultures as that's the only thing I really have to start 'em out on. The recent article I mentioned above cites that the larvae are started out on rotifers for the first 2 weeks or so...I guess it just depends on what SIZE rotifers are available. I was really hoping to come home, find wrigglers, and dump them in the still semi-green 10 gallon I had originally set up for those cardinalfish larvae...it seemed like a good way to go.
Well, I'm not about to give up on the few eggs I have that still look like they may be viable. ONE other note; there's a distinct possibility in my mind that the MALE may not have released any sperm...or if he did, it wasn't viable. He's not the BEST feeder on frozen foods - it took a few months to get him to take them, and only in the last couple weeks has he been actively hunting down frozen brine when it's added to the tank. He seems too SKINNY still at this point...so perhaps it will take a few more spawns before things start going better. Meanwhile, the female is FAT and totally healthy...couldn't ask for a better fish on that side of the pairing.
One last tidbit for the evening - training these wild caught mandarins to accept frozen food. It was actually not "that" difficult. I had come across the "mandarin diner" article that's out there and it got me thinking, so I actually started by simply placing a jar of frozen brine into the tank each day.
Along the way, the male and female had a pretty bitter disagreement and she got the brunt of the battle wounds, so I separated her into a "breeder net". I continued the "mandarin diner" training but it only went SO-SO...she "kinda" got it but also freaked out in the jar sometimes (couldn't figure out how to get back out). All the while I was also offering enriched LIVE BRINE to the fish in general, and both Mandarins would take this with relative gusto.
Well, weeks went by and I got lazy with the jar. I continued to add live brine...it would get pulled into the sides of the breeder net by the current, and the mandarin would simply pick 'em off. At the same time I started adding frozen brine WHEN feeding live brine...this too got sucked onto the sides of the breeder net. I'd add some brine when feeding the main tank everyday, and slowly added live brine less frequently.
So, basically, all it really took was to first get the mandarin to accept the live version of the food. Then, adding in the frozen version while feeding the live version, and by having it "settled" and "act" much like the live version, the difference in "presentation" was minimal. Once you start seeing the mandarin accepting the frozen alternative, you can cut back on the live and eventually they're just on the frozen...at that point all it takes is to just make sure they're getting enough nutrition from the food and the conversion is done!
The big key, at least for me, was the isolation in the little pen - no competition for food, the food doesn't get blown away, and there's all the time in the world for the mandarin to examine the food and make a decision. In the case of the female, she really took to it and started to recognize food the moment I swirled it in the water with my fingers...she'll take it right out of the water column. Our male is a bit less aggressive about it, but he too now does feed from the water column as long as he can "look" at the food long enough first. Both will now occasionally take mysis that's put in for the seahorses, but they still prefer the various types of enriched frozen brine.
So, there it is...time for bed!
MP
The night of the spawn, mere hours before we left for MN, I had the 10 gallon tank ready for the Apogon leptacanthus that were "DUE" to be released that night...thus one of the reasons I was sitting watching the tanks in the first place. The larvae never came (and were released into the tank while we were away, doomed to become food for the other fish in the tank). The tank was full of Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Rotifers and a small unidentified copepod that flourishes within my rotifer cultures. I figured this "soup" was likely NOT the place for eggs to incubate successfully.
So yes, they went into a large specimen cup hanging in the parent's tank. I ran an airline in with rigid tubing to a bottom corner to create some sort of circulation in the tank...adjustments were pain but I think I set it 'OK'. HINDsight being what it is, perhaps an egg tumbler may have been more successful.
Well, upon returning, most all of the eggs are fungused. There's also white stringy stuff on the air tubing. It doesn't look like ANY are viable..no little eyes or anything. But I don't know how long they should take to develop and hatch either, and a few seem to be perhaps still alive...I'm going to wait a little bit longer (maybe until tomorrow evening) and see what if anything changes/develops.
The only info I really have to go on is a couple relatively vague articles...i.e. the one in Coral's Magazine - have any of you read it and noticed that some of the times & measurements given don't match up? I'm talking like 3-5 inches at 8 weeks or something like that - I"m assuming these are details that got jumbled in translation.
As far as first foods are concerned, my gut was to utilize my existing rotifer/copepod cultures as that's the only thing I really have to start 'em out on. The recent article I mentioned above cites that the larvae are started out on rotifers for the first 2 weeks or so...I guess it just depends on what SIZE rotifers are available. I was really hoping to come home, find wrigglers, and dump them in the still semi-green 10 gallon I had originally set up for those cardinalfish larvae...it seemed like a good way to go.
Well, I'm not about to give up on the few eggs I have that still look like they may be viable. ONE other note; there's a distinct possibility in my mind that the MALE may not have released any sperm...or if he did, it wasn't viable. He's not the BEST feeder on frozen foods - it took a few months to get him to take them, and only in the last couple weeks has he been actively hunting down frozen brine when it's added to the tank. He seems too SKINNY still at this point...so perhaps it will take a few more spawns before things start going better. Meanwhile, the female is FAT and totally healthy...couldn't ask for a better fish on that side of the pairing.
One last tidbit for the evening - training these wild caught mandarins to accept frozen food. It was actually not "that" difficult. I had come across the "mandarin diner" article that's out there and it got me thinking, so I actually started by simply placing a jar of frozen brine into the tank each day.
Along the way, the male and female had a pretty bitter disagreement and she got the brunt of the battle wounds, so I separated her into a "breeder net". I continued the "mandarin diner" training but it only went SO-SO...she "kinda" got it but also freaked out in the jar sometimes (couldn't figure out how to get back out). All the while I was also offering enriched LIVE BRINE to the fish in general, and both Mandarins would take this with relative gusto.
Well, weeks went by and I got lazy with the jar. I continued to add live brine...it would get pulled into the sides of the breeder net by the current, and the mandarin would simply pick 'em off. At the same time I started adding frozen brine WHEN feeding live brine...this too got sucked onto the sides of the breeder net. I'd add some brine when feeding the main tank everyday, and slowly added live brine less frequently.
So, basically, all it really took was to first get the mandarin to accept the live version of the food. Then, adding in the frozen version while feeding the live version, and by having it "settled" and "act" much like the live version, the difference in "presentation" was minimal. Once you start seeing the mandarin accepting the frozen alternative, you can cut back on the live and eventually they're just on the frozen...at that point all it takes is to just make sure they're getting enough nutrition from the food and the conversion is done!
The big key, at least for me, was the isolation in the little pen - no competition for food, the food doesn't get blown away, and there's all the time in the world for the mandarin to examine the food and make a decision. In the case of the female, she really took to it and started to recognize food the moment I swirled it in the water with my fingers...she'll take it right out of the water column. Our male is a bit less aggressive about it, but he too now does feed from the water column as long as he can "look" at the food long enough first. Both will now occasionally take mysis that's put in for the seahorses, but they still prefer the various types of enriched frozen brine.
So, there it is...time for bed!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Sorry, had to come back and add one more little bit of info on how this all started ORIGINALLY, we had a plague of the red planarians in the cardinalfish tank. Having difficulty locating the appropriate nudibranchs (which I DID eventually find, only to have all three DIE and NEVER touch a flatworm), I asked one of my LFS to pick up some green mandarins..preferably a male and female.
We got REAL lucky...since opening his shop our LFS owner hadn't seen a female mandarin. Well, the very next week he found a female (along with 100 males) STILL FLOATING at our area wholesaler's tanks. They never even hit the wholesaler's holding tanks, but went straight back to the shop and were placed in a 20 gallon there. I hadn't even gotten the call...just happened to run by and found them there...he was giving them time to settle in. They stayed at the shop for about a week before coming home...and they NEVER ate a red flatworm. The decision to move them into their "own" tank only really came about when we decided that the new "spare tank" should be a seahorse tank...I wanted a bit more than just the seahorses, and the mandarins were obviously a good fit. During their time in the Cardinalfish tank, I believe the mandarins actually spawned once or twice, as the female would appear very robust and then the next day relatively SKINNY. NOW, having come back after a confirmed spawn and seeing what she looks like 3 days later, I'm confident that those other "possible" spawns were in fact definitely spawning events that went missed.
FWIW,
Matt
ORIGINALLY, we had a plague of the red planarians in the cardinalfish tank. Having difficulty locating the appropriate nudibranchs (which I DID eventually find, only to have all three DIE and NEVER touch a flatworm), I asked one of my LFS to pick up some green mandarins..preferably a male and female.We got REAL lucky...since opening his shop our LFS owner hadn't seen a female mandarin. Well, the very next week he found a female (along with 100 males) STILL FLOATING at our area wholesaler's tanks. They never even hit the wholesaler's holding tanks, but went straight back to the shop and were placed in a 20 gallon there. I hadn't even gotten the call...just happened to run by and found them there...he was giving them time to settle in. They stayed at the shop for about a week before coming home...and they NEVER ate a red flatworm. The decision to move them into their "own" tank only really came about when we decided that the new "spare tank" should be a seahorse tank...I wanted a bit more than just the seahorses, and the mandarins were obviously a good fit. During their time in the Cardinalfish tank, I believe the mandarins actually spawned once or twice, as the female would appear very robust and then the next day relatively SKINNY. NOW, having come back after a confirmed spawn and seeing what she looks like 3 days later, I'm confident that those other "possible" spawns were in fact definitely spawning events that went missed.
FWIW,
Matt
I just removed two posts, AGAIN, on the culling issue. Please, lets keep this thread on trtack, it is about breeding the green mandarin, not your opinions on the ethics behind culling..
I will not lock this thread, mwp has put some good info here and I would like to see it continue.. However, if Frank decides to lock it for a period of time, that is his discretion..
I will not lock this thread, mwp has put some good info here and I would like to see it continue.. However, if Frank decides to lock it for a period of time, that is his discretion..
thanks Nagel
i want to keep this thread open as long as possible. Matt has written his heart and soul in here, and much of it is real nitty gritty observations and useful info. Honestly mandarin breeding is a topic that comes up often- so this is very germaine
However the sidestepping of the thread w/ the culling conversation has got to stop.
Again we are all adults, please take whatever agenda you have outside this forum.
You can debate whatever side of you choose- just not in this thread
I do not want to lock this thread down, but this has got to stop.
Last warning
frank
i want to keep this thread open as long as possible. Matt has written his heart and soul in here, and much of it is real nitty gritty observations and useful info. Honestly mandarin breeding is a topic that comes up often- so this is very germaine
However the sidestepping of the thread w/ the culling conversation has got to stop.
Again we are all adults, please take whatever agenda you have outside this forum.
You can debate whatever side of you choose- just not in this thread
I do not want to lock this thread down, but this has got to stop.
Last warning
frank
mwp
In Memoriam
Well, it's now Wed....and definitely no mandarin fry to deal with 
I've found some additional information that suggests that hatch time might be as little as 2 days...so it's possible we had a hatch and then a die off, although as I mentioned earlier, it looked like there were still solid eggs in there. So MAYBE we had a bunch of infertile eggs...again I totaly believe that's possible because our male is not nearly as "robust" as I'd like any breeding fish to be.
Another tidbit - putting them in the specimen cup with a slow air flow in the corner didn't work well either. I'd say I was running a couple bubbles per second out of the airline (couple being somewhere around 2-4 p.s.). MOST of the eggs were stuck against the sides of the specimen cup, above the water line, when we returned home Sunday. I'm going to have to try a few different incubation methods next time I get lucky enough to collect a spawn...I have the egg tumbler on hand, but I think a reversed flow would work well (as the eggs are boyant). I may actually try to concoct some sort of mini Kreisel or something else that will keep the eggs suspended (granted I'm not sure why I'm trying to reinvent the wheel when the stirring/propeller method is proven already...just hopeing for something simpler I guess).
Well, that's all I have for now...just working on fattening them both up for another spawn down the line.
Matt
I've found some additional information that suggests that hatch time might be as little as 2 days...so it's possible we had a hatch and then a die off, although as I mentioned earlier, it looked like there were still solid eggs in there. So MAYBE we had a bunch of infertile eggs...again I totaly believe that's possible because our male is not nearly as "robust" as I'd like any breeding fish to be.
Another tidbit - putting them in the specimen cup with a slow air flow in the corner didn't work well either. I'd say I was running a couple bubbles per second out of the airline (couple being somewhere around 2-4 p.s.). MOST of the eggs were stuck against the sides of the specimen cup, above the water line, when we returned home Sunday. I'm going to have to try a few different incubation methods next time I get lucky enough to collect a spawn...I have the egg tumbler on hand, but I think a reversed flow would work well (as the eggs are boyant). I may actually try to concoct some sort of mini Kreisel or something else that will keep the eggs suspended (granted I'm not sure why I'm trying to reinvent the wheel when the stirring/propeller method is proven already...just hopeing for something simpler I guess).
Well, that's all I have for now...just working on fattening them both up for another spawn down the line.
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Just another followup, it's now Wed. evening and while I don't suspect that anothe spawn is imminent at this point, it is somewhat apparent that the male sure would like to give it another go. He's following the female around, trying to push her up towards the surface, raising his fins hoping to catch her eye....I wonder if we'll get them on a weekly spawning routine like the margaritophorus were for so long (granted, the mandarins hopefully won't "eat the clutch" with regularity)! Gonna sit and watch 'em for a bit before the lights go out...for the most part though, the female seems to be content on just grazing on the back wall.
MP
MP
rsman
New member
i really would like to post more on this thread but its not going to happen today
but
you can raise them initially on rotifers though the smaller ones wont make it, you will also need to find a suitable 2nd food (planktonic copepods ((in whatever stage puts them small)))
you should be prepared for the first few spawning sessions to be staggered between 1 and 6~8 weeks just newbie behavior
the lego propeller works great, the other that works great is from a zagi rc airplane (small diameter high pitch)
but
you can raise them initially on rotifers though the smaller ones wont make it, you will also need to find a suitable 2nd food (planktonic copepods ((in whatever stage puts them small)))
you should be prepared for the first few spawning sessions to be staggered between 1 and 6~8 weeks just newbie behavior
the lego propeller works great, the other that works great is from a zagi rc airplane (small diameter high pitch)
mwp
In Memoriam
RSMan, thanks for posting that info. I'm tno sure shy, but most artifical incubation attempts so far have failed...thus I'm still looking for a suitable flow-through type setup, thus maybe the mini kriesle. Let me ask you this; when using a "stirrer", how are the eggs actually circulated? Do the swirl midwater as if stuck in a whirlpool?
My initial thoughts for a kriesle were a small water pump adding water in at the top of a cylinder laid down on it's sides, with both ends covered in a fine mesh that would thus allow for diffused release of the water while maintaining the vertically circular tumbling flow that's so important. (wow, that's a hefty sentence).
At least one fellow poster inquired about anti-fungals...when incubating Cichlid Eggs we used methelyn blue in the tumbler tanks...do you think something like this is necessary when incubating the mandarin eggs (afterall, ours turned into a soupy white mess)?
MP
My initial thoughts for a kriesle were a small water pump adding water in at the top of a cylinder laid down on it's sides, with both ends covered in a fine mesh that would thus allow for diffused release of the water while maintaining the vertically circular tumbling flow that's so important. (wow, that's a hefty sentence).
At least one fellow poster inquired about anti-fungals...when incubating Cichlid Eggs we used methelyn blue in the tumbler tanks...do you think something like this is necessary when incubating the mandarin eggs (afterall, ours turned into a soupy white mess)?
MP
jnowell
New member
Nice Job MP - Good luck with the continuing adventure, I've wanted to give mandarins a go...figure out the easy way so we can all do it I've used meth blue on clownfish eggs, might be worth a shot. I made a pretty effective kreisel with a plastic fish bowl in a 10 gallon tank. air lines on one side, syphon from a hang on into the other. You can see much of the setup here in this video:
http://www.wfrs.org/SH_babies.wmv
Rsman....Zagi Prop
Now who the heck else knows what that is other than you and me. LOL I bet it does work like a champ in that application though.
Jason
I've used meth blue on clownfish eggs, might be worth a shot. I made a pretty effective kreisel with a plastic fish bowl in a 10 gallon tank. air lines on one side, syphon from a hang on into the other. You can see much of the setup here in this video:http://www.wfrs.org/SH_babies.wmv
Rsman....Zagi Prop
Now who the heck else knows what that is other than you and me. LOL I bet it does work like a champ in that application though.Jason
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