Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

I just had to come back and make ONE more note...it seems that every night I read Mai's Coral Magazine Article searching and searching for clues. I think I stumbled on something and knowing how most folks suggest keeping mandarins, it comes as no real surprise. Mai did NOT start out his larvae in any type of sterile environment, in fact he started out his S. picturatus larvae in a larval tank of about 6.5 gallons that was FULL of invertebrate/microscopic life. He started with a spawn of around 30 and managed to bring 16 out to 10 weeks++.

There are still 4-5 larvae from our 6-30-06 spawn...which as you recall was not a HUGE spawn..I think 200 some odd eggs? Well, the hatch seems relatively proportional, but the die off early on doesn't seem match up with the 6-27 spawn. Eureka, the only difference maybe is that the larval tank had been up for a bit and already had some life (food-type stuff) in it?!

Just an interesting thought which is more a "gut feeling" than any type of real hard data/observation. The answer may be back there in all these long rambling notes, but the notion may help with future success. I only need to raise 1 to saleable size to consider it "mission accomplished" but it's a 2 part mission, the next step being some actual return on investment! If even only 15 captive bred mandarins could be had from a single spawn...well, we're on spawn 20+ at this point...all of a sudden that's 300 mandarins to saleable size...not HUGE numbers but PLENTY for the casual hobbist breeder. Of course, it would probably take more than 1 10 gallon tank to pull of anyways!

Matt

 

[mwp]

7-4-06, 12:38 AM, WE'VE HAD A SPAWN!

Ok, so this time around, here's all that's going to happen. Quickly scoop out the eggs, dump them in the larval tank and that's that! I was hesitant to do even that, but thought about the amount of LIFE that's in the larval tank...unfertile eggs won't be any problem for the copepods and rotifers and other stuff at this point, so why not, right? I'm pretty much at the end of the line though for harvesting eggs into the 10 gallon...I either need a 2nd OR I need to start passing out eggs to other folks who want to try and raise them...at least until I have an empty tank (larvae wise) to start up a fresh batch.

MP

 

[mwp]

Smaller spawn, maybe 250, 300 eggs at most. Parental tank was 79.7F, larval tank 79.5F. Temperature acclimation should be a non-issue.

MP

 

[lion-clown]

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I have been reading for the past week and am only to page 17 i have been trying to study the mandarin a little and really want to get one. actually after what i have read i would love 2 but am worried that i couldn't even keep 1 alive. First if i was to buy a mandarin could i later introduce a second one? If so which order would be best male then female or opposite? Second if you could give me tips for keeping them i would appreciate it. My tank is a 55 gal. with a maron clown, yellow tang, and a royal gamma. I also have a carpet anemone. Is this a recipe for disaster or is it possible? I have had the tank for over a year and have a refugium setup with it. I have quite a few copepods that i can see. Any sugestion would be great thanks!


Tony

 

[mwp]

Hey Tony, I'm by no means an expert but here's what I can suggest.

1. Ditch the carpet anemone (well don't "ditch" it but find it another good home). Mandarins, with the way they perch on the substrate through most all of the day, well...I culd see it accidentally landing in the anemone. Granted, does your maroon clown use it? If so, he *might* keep the mandarin out. On the flipside, the Maroon could be a problem aggression wise.

2. If you're ditching the anemone, you might also ditch the clownfish and even more so, the tang (who is a substrate feeder and will definitely compete with the mandarin for anything on the substrate). I think that the Royal Gramma would probably be fine with mandarins.

3. Look up Melev's Mandarin Diner (it's late, so google it!)

4. Go back to the beginning of the thread and look up the "feeding / training" details - it seems to work pretty well to get the fish trained onto frozen foods.

5. If you can't get a pair right off the bat and having a pair is the ultimate goal, I'd personally suggest starting with the FEMALE first.

6. Make sure you have a good steady supply of LIVE BRINE and proper enrichments such as Selcon and that you have the equipment for the brine and know how to enrich it / feed it properly. The ultimate goal is to get them OFF live foods, but unless it's already eating frozen foods in the shop you'll have your work cut out for you.

7. Only start with a healthy, actively "searching" mandarin that isn't too skinny. A somewhat hollow belly is one thing (already a negative) but when the bones on the sides start showing through it's probably too late (although that's how my male red scooter blenny started out...I should've just grabbed the starving female that was with him)!

8. If you get to the point where your mandarin is in the main tank, eating frozen food, and you want to consider other tankmaktes, pick other deliberate feeders, preferably stuff that won't compete with the mandarins in any way (i.e. cardinalfish never feed off the substrate, my GBG's typically strike at the water column etc, same goes for my firefish...)

9. Basically, if you want to keep mandarins in the tank, make the mandarins PRIORITY and structure the rest of what you do around them!

Gotta go, around 1:40 AM while typing this up we had a MYSTERY hatch in the cardinalfish tank! (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7677867)

MP

 

[mwp]

A side update - I may have already linked to this thread, but here's a quick bit of info on Red Scooter Blennies - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7679130

Once we've nailed down the Mandarins, here's our currently "separated" pair of RSB's for the next Synchiropus project!

The Female:

The Male:

------

So I'm still noticing some "curiousity" between the two female mandarins (#2 is still safe in the breeder net) but in this latest interaction it didn't seem so "aggressive" in nature.

On the larval front, there are at least 4 larvae remaining from the 2 batches, 2 in the water column, 1 on the surface, and one pickin' at the glass...there are probably more around, just didn't find them yet!

Last night's spawn is still in "egg" form...

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

2:17 PM, there are now only 4 larvae that I can locate for sure. The larval tank got a splash of Tetraselmis, T-Iso and Nannochloropsis. We'll definitely beat the record, but I'm starting to wonder by how much. So far there hasnt' been any hatch on last night's spawn, but it could take a couple more hours (i.e. lately the larvae really start showing up around 4-6 PM).

MP

 

[Jatuki]

Those RSB's are beautiful!

What size tank will they go in eventually? (Sorry if it's already been mentioned).

Sounds like those two females are starting to get alonk okay. I guess the final test will be when #2 is fat enough to be released out of the net.

best of luck,

Jack

 

[lion-clown]

Thanks for the info i really appreciate it. This forum is so awsome so many times you only hear how hard and impossible it is to keep the mandarin. So keep up the thread it is so fun to read.

I have a question on:
6. Make sure you have a good steady supply of LIVE BRINE and proper enrichments such as Selcon and that you have the equipment for the brine and know how to enrich it / feed it properly. The ultimate goal is to get them OFF live foods, but unless it's already eating frozen foods in the shop you'll have your work cut out for you.

I have no idea about how to enrich the brine and what is the Selcon? Sorry not very up on this stuff but really am trying to learn as fast as possible. Also you have mentioned T Iso, Tetraselmis, and SS Rotifers. Where are you getting these?

 

[mwp]

Jack,

Those RSB's are beautiful! What size tank will they go in eventually? (Sorry if it's already been mentioned).

Ultimately they'll both be in the 24 gallon nanocube with the cardinalfish.

Sounds like those two females are starting to get alonk okay. I guess the final test will be when #2 is fat enough to be released out of the net.

Yup, that's pretty much what I've been thinking after watching them.

lion-clown,

I have a question...I have no idea about how to enrich the brine and what is the Selcon?

Selcon, Super Selcon, Selco etc...basically if I remember correctly it's a fish oil emmulsion that is high in HUFAs. To enrich live brine (or rotifers) with a product like this, you simply place them in a cup for a few hours or more...the brine shrimp feed on it on it, thereby enriching their guts (and themselves). Some of this enrichment may also stick to their external parts as well. In any case, it makes the live brine more nutritious that it would normally be, but you can't feed it ALL the time or you'll pollute and kill your brine shrimp / rotifer cultures.

Also you have mentioned T Iso, Tetraselmis, and SS Rotifers. Where are you getting these?

I culture all these foods (see back earlier in the thread). My starter cultures were obtained:

Nannochloropsis, Tetraselmis and Nannochloris from Florida Aqua Farms in "disk" form....actually I think the Tetraselmis they sent was in liquid form as they were out of disks at the time.

T-Iso from Dan @ Seahorsesource.com as a live starter culture - more expensive than a disc but looking back, I think Dan's cultures were TOP NOTCH and if I needed more types or to restart, I'd go to Seahorsesource.com first.

SS-Strain Rotifers - Greshem pointed me to a source for them...still not sure if that source wants to be publicized online simply because I don't think he can spare them all the time etc. SS-Strain Rotifers or S-Strain Rotifers...if you can find them, pick them up even if you don't need them right at that moment because they're not easy to come by. I know Reed Mariculture has plans to work with them in the future but beyond that you'd have to ask Randy or Gresham.

L-Strain Rotifers - Florida Aquafarms as a live culture.

Tiggerpods - Reed Mariculture's Tiggerpods...simply started off with a bottle purchased at the LFS - they're not easy to consistently culture though....they kinda work better if you treat them as "batch cultures" vs. ongoing perpetual cultures.

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Larval Update - might as well post how things are going in the larval tank. NO hatch on last night's spawn! Only 3 babies left in the tank, at least 3 that I could find and all are feeding in the water column. We're already in "personal record breaking territory" for sure...I definitely can't say whether these are from the older or younger spawn, but by their behavior they are probably all younger ones....there could be one or two off somewhere feeding on the glass or even worse, rooting through the trash on the bottom, but I haven't found 'em!

I might do a bit more work on the tank this evening, but that's it for now!

MP

 

[OldmillXxX]

I'm sure you may have tried, but I have not seen or heard a mention of a video of the little "old" fry. A macro setting, maybe even shot through a magnifying glass would be enough for our drooling souls.

AWESOME Dedication!

 

[mwp]

Tim, what the heck, right? Might as well get some "documentation" considering I still think I need to work on the HATCHING end of things before this is going to truly be a successful endeavor!

I looked back in the tank and was only able to locate THREE larvae. 1 was from a hatch of last night's spawn. 1 was in the water column feeding. The largest one was at the surface. IF this is from the oldest spawn, this larvae is 8 days old now, starting day 9 of life. IF this is from the 2nd spawning, this larvae is 5 days old, kicking off day 6 of life.

First, a short quicktime vid of the larvae in a small pool of water on a microscope slide on the mini LED flashlight, aka the "makeshift microscope" - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN3250.MOV

And here is a SLEW of pictures. Again, not sure if this is a 5 day old or 8 day old larvae, however I think some of the details barely perceiveable in the photographs may make the case that this one is in fact 8 days old (think caudal fin development). I'm also going to have to refer back to some earlier images posted and do some comparisions.

These are all the same larvae, just an FYI:

same picture, showing full size of flashlight and a rough guideline for scale:

Anyway, there you have it. I need to do a water test...I'm a bit concerned with the recent "disappearances" of larve in the last 48 hours with things going so well prior. I believe there are PLENTY of SS Rotifers and other life in the tank. I also think that for at least the first 3 days post spawn there is probably no need for SS Rotifers, at least not ADULTS, as they appear to be too big. So perhaps the next time I sterlize and start up a larval tank I'll simply STRAIN my SS rotifers for items less than 53 microns, or perhaps even go down as far as a range between 10 and 22 microns!

I gotta say, the QX5 is really going to help answer a lot of questions in the coming weeks (i.e. what are the newly "mouthed" larvae actually feeding on until they can take down the tiny rotifers?).

That's it for now!

MP

 

[mwp]

What the heck, to aleviate my concerns about water quality, at least temporarily, I'm going to toss in 8 drops of Prime...can't hurt and will bind up anything that could be causing problems!

MP

 

[mwp]

Ok, I'm thoroughly confusing myself with "Days" and "dates"...I should stick to "hours post spawn". I looked back at the oldest larval picture I had - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=824111&perpage=25&pagenumber=5 (page 5 of this thread) - The last larval picture on that page is roughly 142 hours old.

The larvae above could either be approximately 120 hours old (younger larvae, aka batch 2) or 192 hours old (the oldest larvae, batch #1). In looking at the pictures, I do not see any great differences between the larvae photographed above and the one shown at 133 hours. SO...I *think* the one on this page is from "batch #2", aka. the "younger larvae".

The REAL test will be if I can find anything still alive around 12:00 AM July 6 -OR- if I'm overlooking settled out larvae. If after an exhaustive search for life at that time I come up empty handed, I believe I'll have identified a "threshold" I'm having difficulty crossing (about 6 days I'd say). OBVIOUSLY the larvae are feeding on something to get this far, that we can be sure of. However, more precise feeding techniques including more enrichment might be required.

So, for now, I just need to make it through the next couple days still having larvae. I also realized I don't have anything to show in the 48 and 72 hour stages of development, so if that lone larvae from last night's spawn sticks around I'm going to be harassing him for pictures!

What was looking like it was going well for a change is starting to get frustrating again...GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

MP

 

[mwp]

OK, darnit, I'm not giving up without a fight. I went back to look at the larval tank and for a brief moment counted THREE larvae that weren't from last night's spawn.

So I think I'm losing my mind. I spy TWO larvae right next to each other that to the naked eye DEFINITELY look different from a coloration and morphological standpoint (not to mention outright size). I go after them both with the pipette and I THINK I got both the ones I saw. Back onto the makeshift microscope and MORE pics are taken.

I've reviewed the pics and honestly I'm not 100% comfortable in saying that they are from the same batch or not. One larvae appears to have more developed skeletal structure, overal larger size, overall browner color. Conversely, looking again, I can't interpret the abdomen situation...this is the area they differ in the most and it could be a few things. 1 possibility (and the one I'm hoping for) is that these are clearly animals of differnt age, which means ONE of them is indeed 193 or so hours at this point. If they are from the same batch, a 2nd possibility is that one has been feeding heavily whereas one has not (and thus one is growing more/faster than the other). The third possibility is that they are again from the same batch but are feeding on DIFFERENT organisms, thus the difference in pigmentation.

On this one folks, especially experienced larval rearers, I'd REALLY appreciate some opinions on the pix below. I'm not going to bug the mandarin babies again until I clearly see something NOTEWORTHY worth taking pictures off (like settlement).

So here they are, 2 mandarin larvae that appear distinctly different to the naked eye, photographed together, side by side, for comparison.

MP

 

[mwp]

So...no one's willing to take a stab at whether these two larvae are from the same spawn or not, eh?

Well, it's just after midnight now...didn't look at the larval tank at all in the last 22 hours or so. This evening I've only been able to locate ONE live larvae, big, brown, eating with gusto. GRR....ONE!

I put in 2 more "basters" of "fresh" mandarin mix...this week's batch is roughly 50% T-Iso, 25% Tetraselmis and 25% Nannochloropsus. I guess all we can do at this point is hope this one makes it all the way!

MP

 

[BrianPlankis]

MP,

Hey man, you are doing GREAT work, everyone reading this thread raise your hand if you have raised a mandarin baby to 8 days? Anyone? I know I can't do it!

I love the larvae pictures, but I would suggest to just let the larvae live and eat at this point, I would think they would be pretty fragile and squirting in and out of pipettes can't be too good for them. But what do I know?

B.

 

[mwp]

Ciro I'm totally in agreement with you...my gut tells me the handling can't have any positive merits to the FISH...sure it's helpful for documentation but now that we're again down to apparently 1 larva, well, I'm not going to be taking pictures again anytime soon.

On the flipside though I'm using a pipette that I've cut the tip off so it's a BIG hole to suck them into...little chance for mechanical damage. The picture sessions are quick and the larvae are then simply dipped back into the tank while still on the slide to simply swim off...it's about as gentle a process as I can come up with

So do I take it that you believe the larger, browner larvae in last night's pictures is from our "oldest spawn" batch?

I'll raise RSman's hand for him!

MP

 

[mwp]

7-6-07, 1:30 AM - WE HAVE A SPAWN! - now on this one I was NOT paying any attention to them....busy with other stuff so I just shut everything down and checked in around 12:35 AM...they were still up and courting and I didn't think about it again until 1:30 AM or so.

This was a BIG spawn...I'm going to say 600 eggs or so easily. I have to get up in less than 6 hours, so I didn't even bother doing a count or anything, just collected them and dumped them in the larval tank and will again hope for the best. I was kinda in a conundrum...do I try to catch one remaining larvae, drain the tank and refill with freshly mixed water or do I just cut and run and go to bed? Bed is winning out again tonight folks! Considering the last spawn had a hatch of 1 (who BTW I can no longer find) I'm not terribly optimistic for this latest spawn either. I really could use that 2nd 10 gallon tank at this point...one for hatching, one for larval rearing! It'd definitely allow me to work with more larvae which is going to be key for producing any worthwhile numbers. All the same, for now, I really don't want to screw with this one remaining larva as he/she/it looks to be doing quite well!

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

It's 9:00 AM on 7-6-06. We STILL have one remaining larvae and at this point I'm VERY confident in saying that it is from the OLDEST spawn. Today, for the first time, I saw a larval mandarin feeding ON THE BOTTOM!

Now, I don't think I'd consider this larva SETTLED yet because it started off feeding in the water column during this morning observation but the bottom feeding is definitely a new behavior. If this is the oldest larvae, it is 225 hours old, 9 days and change. Just because I'm still not 100% sure, if this from batch #2, then it's 154 hours old, 6 days and change.

Again, based on the behaviors recorded by Sadovy around this time, it really places this larvae as a 9 day fish vs. a 6 day fish.

FWIW,

MP