Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

Jake, I actually tried a professional egg hatching setup and it was beyond inappropriate for the eggs...within 5 minutes every last egg had exited the hatcher. Basically any incubation setup for mandarins will have to be either self-contained or have a VERY VERY VERY slow flow-through rate. Fellow breeders have also cited issues with air being used to circulate the eggs, and so far my best results have been to simply dump the eggs in a 10 gallon tank with a VERY gentle air feed in one corner. I've tried EVERYTHING but the kitchen sink with no consistent or good results, which has lead me to the PARENTS as a potential source of problems (i.e. infertility). However, the eggs are virtually ALL fertilized, most just fail to develop. Which leads me to an "egg quality" issue, which would most likely be a result of dietary issues, but there too I really don't have any known issues...

Basically, I'm stumped for the time being.

Matt

 

[jake levi]

Maybe time out and we do a LOT of reading on wild spawnings/breedings and conditions. Possibly lower salinity ? Someone mentioned that for others.

The ten gallon is a blessing in many ways, I'd be lost without them.

Good luck, something will come up to someone.

 

[mwp]

Yes, lower salinity has been brought up, but these fish do live on and spawn on the reef, apparently daily according to the wild info I've found. It sounds like it's heavily dependant on the solar cycle, and that would definitely be supported by my mandarins. With mine not spawning EVERY day, there does seem to be a pattern of spawnings around full and new moons.

I somewhat think of the salinity as a wild goosechase...it's probably the last thing I'll be taking a look at only because in order to really test it out I'll have to drop the salinity of the parental tank (which is a reef...running it at 1.020 isn't going to be good for some of the other life in there).

The videos seem to tell the tale pretty well...the eggs develop well for up to 8-10 hours but then they start "stopping" and only a few make it all the way. I'm still more inclined to think of parental conditions.

It's also worth mentioning that MAI's reported hatch was 30...raising 16 to 2 months and on. Not many folks have worked with these enough to determine if a good hatch is only 5% of the eggs or not, but I suspect that if the right combination of conditions is met there is no reason we should see a full hatch approaching 100% considering that all the eggs pretty much start out fertile.

Not giving up, but definitely focusing on the GBG's for the time being.

Matt

 

[jake levi]

Hi Matt
I just mentioned the trout egg hatchers as a basis for a design, the actual ones are made for eggs mega larger then a pelagic fishes, I havent seen any mandarin eggs but would guess they are smaller then this period. True ?So a standard salmonid hatching jar would be mega big. But, the design could be modified I think.

I am just working off a hunch that you will find that the answer will be a compound one, not a single thing. I'd be tempted to rig a ten gallon up as a'sump' configuration off the brood tank, very mild flow back and forth, maybe with an airlift, and a mild 'bubble wand' in the tank somewhere.

If I had to make a guess right now from what you have reported it'd be an oxygenation issue. Being pelagic they are going to be exposed to max fresh/oxygenated water, I'd try a mild 02 bubbling through the sub tank with the eggs.

Another option would be to rig a 5 gal carboy/water jug next to the brood tank, and bubble 02 up through it while doing a water exchange with the brood tank.

 

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8042711#post8042711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jake levi
Hi Matt
I just mentioned the trout egg hatchers as a basis for a design, the actual ones are made for eggs mega larger then a pelagic fishes, I havent seen any mandarin eggs but would guess they are smaller then this period. True ?So a standard salmonid hatching jar would be mega big. But, the design could be modified I think.

The main issue with the hatcher I tried was the design, flowing in at the bottom and out at the top...the mandarin eggs float until hatching, so water can't exit at the top; if it does, it will either drain off the eggs (my experience) and if the exit was all screened off, the eggs would be stuck on the screening. Contact with ANYTHING "supposedly" can prevent the eggs from hatching (or damage them). I can't necessarily say that this is the problem as the eggs tend to collect along the sides of the 10 gallon tank.

The eggs are larger than a . - just under 1 MM in diameter.

If I had to make a guess right now from what you have reported it'd be an oxygenation issue. Being pelagic they are going to be exposed to max fresh/oxygenated water, I'd try a mild 02 bubbling through the sub tank with the eggs.

I'm not sure I can agree because one of my best hatches occured in a VERY TINY container under the microscope in a closed situation with no aeration AND it was "covered" which limited gas exchange. Hatches are basically very hit and miss. The ONLY consitent 'helper' seems to be the large 10 gallon tank - up until the microscope hatch it SEEMED that volume of water played a factor, but that microscope hatch totally shot that theory.

Another option would be to rig a 5 gal carboy/water jug next to the brood tank, and bubble 02 up through it while doing a water exchange with the brood tank.

Sounds similar to something that was suggested but I haven't tried yet. Apparently in the hatchery situation most pelagic centropyge eggs are incubated in something like a 500 ML Erlenmeyer flask with a very gentle air feed. Knowing this, the whole "incubation container/method" may be a wild goose chase as well.

A lot of experienced breeders have suggested that this may be an infection/fungus type of issue. That's one of the things I haven't ruled out completely yet, although treatments with Formalin and Methelyn Blue, separately and in conjunction, have had no positive effect. Maracyn II is on my "to try" list in the future.

I had one crazy thought last night...if our eggs turn out to have issues of quality due to parental diet or something, would it be possible to add SUGAR to the hatching water with the ultimate goal to have some of that sugar enter into the egg and help provide additional energy for growth?

Matt

 

[aomont]

Hi Matt,
I still think of how the eggs would do in a slight warmer water... That definetely happens under the scopes. You could just simulate what you did with the eggs and compare this water temperature to that of the larval tank at the same time. Maybe in your conditions they are staying too much time as eggs.

I don´t like the suggar thing. Bacteria will love it and grow as never. Besides, it will add to osmolarity (a little, but maybe too much) and everybody is wantin you to do the opposite !

Anderson.

 

[jake levi]

Matt what was the time period that you had the eggs under the scope ? limited or a long period ?

The success of the erlenmeyer flask is probably more a factor of thats what they had over what would have been best.

Even trying sugar would seem to me be a waste of eggs. The bacteria count is going to surge.

One of the cone shaped lab hatchers, of 100 liters or so may be worth trying, you can maintain max O2, keep the eggs moving, and draw off sediment. But I think a ten gallon will also work.

 

[BrianPlankis]

I would vote against the sugar idea as well. It would probably fuel bacteria, but assuming these babies have a yolk sac (which I think I saw in one of your videos), they are using that yolk sac for food and until they are out of the egg the sugar wouldn't do anything for them, and once out I don't think dissolved sugar would be a "target" for them to feed on).

Brian

 

[mwp]

Well guys, what *could* be done TO THE EGGS (not parental diet etc) if there were missing nutrients or "energy" in the eggs that's preventing them from hatching?

Interesting thought about the hatch time...all of mine seem to be taking 16 hours, whereas Sadovy had hatches from 12 to 16...higher temps could definitely account for that under the microscope. I wonder how much heat was generated by the single LED lighting though...if anything I was more concerned about the water cooling off...hmmmmmmm

Matt

 

[FishGuttz]

Matt,
Maybe you could consider adding higher levels of calcium to the water in the parental tank, I've suggested this before, and gave related references, Calcium could certainly aid in success of spawning and quality of eggs. Did you ever consider this? Do any other breeders here do this?
-Doug

 

[aomont]

Sadovy had hatch by 12,5 hours at 28,5C (83,3F) and by 16 hours at 24C (75,2F). You said your larval tank was at 79-80F (26,1-26,7C)... You're just in between. I would go up to 28-29C in the larval tank and see what happens before going back to the parents diet.

As Doug, i like the calcium idea although most people I talk to run larval tanks without worring about calcium and still get very good results.
However, I think the low calcium would be a later problem.

Anderson.

 

[Kathy55g]

just a thought about egg quality. Parental diet may be a factor.

I was just Googling Astaxanthine and it is supposed to help eggs as well as color of fish. You may want to feed cyclopeeze if you are not already doing that.
K

 

[MG728]

Wow,

MWP your work is inspiring. I have just read (over the past 3 days) this post and I with the perspective of someone who doesn't have a lot of breeding experience but I can see trends. I tend to agree with aomont. Try to duplicate the conditions of the microscope with respect to temperature. Looking back at your earlier posts there is some justification for higher temps. Place some water on your scope and measure the temperate at different intervals. That way you will get an idea for how fast it heated up, and what the max temp was. I imagine that it is possible that the mass deaths of your larve could be due to too high a temp so you will have to continue your experiments. The measurement will serve to indicate the scope of the temperature difference between what you have been trying and the microscope attempt.

Thanks again for taking us on this journey! You have inspired me to try and breed Banggai's - gotta walk before I run. Ok, I'm off to play some romantic music for the cardinals - keep up the great work!!!!

Matt.

 

[Krypticol]

As for parental health, why not mass produce some copepeds gut loaded with spirulina, astaxanthin, and some phyto strains.
a few weeks of dumping cups full of those fresh pods should eliminate any diet issues or concerns...

 

[mwp]

I like all the ideas put forth. To summarize:

1. Increase broodstock "diet" - on this one I think I'm out of options, I utilize Selcon to enrich HUFA further than the foods already have. I utilize Vibrance II from Ocean Rider, which is heavy on the astaxanthin and other stuff. Add to that the fact that most all the frozen brine I feed is already "enriched" with spirulina or vitamins or other items.

2. Calcium - I use Reef Crystals salt, which already has elevated levels of calcium around 360 PPM when I mix it, + I dose the parental tank with calcium to try to keep it higher for the corals and coraline algae. So on calcium I *think* we're pretty safe

3. Temperature - this one I can play with and bring up a bit more, so I definitely will try it. 82F maybe the next time I try to rear a batch...we're currently still tied up with GreenBanded Goby larvae

Matt

 

[jake levi]

Increased oxyagenation of the eggs is my guestimate.

Live eggs rarely fungus if they arnt touching.

Everything that you are doing on diet of the broodstock should produce viable eggs, the breakdown is coming along further down the path.

The only comparable experience I have seen was with salmonid eggs, both under reduced egg movement and/or decreased O2 water content. Then there was egg fungusing.

 

[apistomaster]

Hi Matt,
I'd agree that oxygen and/or other factors are affecting the eggs. I believe that fertility of your broodstock is not a factor. The pelagic conditions in nature are the difficult things to simulate in a closed system. You, more than most, are aware of the difficulty of providing the correct conditions. Talk of hyposaline affecting the eggs can be ignored. Contact or crowding of eggs is something to consider. It would never occur in the sea. The extreme purity of the natural sea water is at odds with what can be acheived in a closed system. I am making no recommendations because your experience has surpassed mine with Mandarins. I have'nt checked in lately but I am still considering possible solutions too overcoming the whole Mandarin egg/larvae/fry challenge. Nothing worth mentioning since we discussed egg antisepsis has been forthcoming from me. I am still interested in the challanges you have undertaken to find a way to raise some Mandarins and I want to see you succeed in the same way we fly fishermen enjoy our friends' catch as much as our own.
Larry Waybright

 

[mwp]

Acutally, Larry and Jake, regarding eggs contacting each other they're actually spawned in a somewhat "sticky" state where they are clumped together; the range is from single eggs to clumps of 100 or more...most are either single eggs or clumps of a few (2-5) to several (10-20-50 etc..)!

Larry, I chalked off a new species over the weekend - Kokanee in the Gunnison area of Colorado

Matt

 

[FishGuttz]

Just an interesting thought. If these eggs hatch at night in the wild, I would think by noon the following day the eggs are floating towards the surface of the sea without any protection from the sun. How do they not fry inside the eggs? I wonder what would happen if you tried to simulate those conditions. Could "true" natural sunlight play a factor in development?

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
Sounds like good fishing. All our Kokanee are small,8-12 inches. They are good smoked but they are mostly prey to Kammloops and big bull trout in the deep glacial lakes, Pend'oreille and Courde'lane. Our summer run steelhead have begun arriving so it's time to break out the hefty flyrods.
I sold off 10 adult discus this weekend and my friend has a 75 reef. She has a pair of Hi Fin Red Banded Gobies that have me thinking about getting the 24gal Nanocube with the 70watt HQI.
I would add a 20 gallon sump/refugium to increase the stability but I won't be trying to walkk in your footsteps with any breeding projects. I have been gathering up various Hypancistrus plecos and still have some discus producing more than I can easily raise and sell but I've been wanting a reef tank that a $100 of frags would easily fill up the space shortly.
Larry