Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
- Thread starter mwp
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mwp
In Memoriam
This evening, Renee looked into the Mandarin Tank (which had 80% of its algae growth harvested yesterday) and said "hey, your mandarins are playing". Turned out the lights at 12:00 AM, and at 12:15 peered into the tank - WE'VE HAD ANOTHER MANDARIN SPAWN!
I'm going to try "something" but I don't know WHAT just yet.
(BTW, guess what kind of moon it is tonight?)
Matt
I'm going to try "something" but I don't know WHAT just yet.
(BTW, guess what kind of moon it is tonight?)
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, so with all the thoughts on temp, and the observation / theory that higher temps may play a role, I simply collected all the eggs (a smaller spawn, maybe 250) in the 1/2 gallon specimen cup and have it sitting in the Clownfish tank (which typically runs 82-83F)...let's see if we get any results. Water wise, it's simply parental tank water. No aeration of any kind...just sitting there for the next 12-16 hours to see what happens.
On to the new GOBIES!
MP
On to the new GOBIES!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, so I had to come back immediately, because we now have at least a dozen hatched....no doubt at this point that higher temperatures don't HURT! The clownfish/flame angel/jawfish/purple firefish tank is running at a temp of 80.2 now, which is the lowest it's been in MONTHS actually, and that's due to the lid being partially OPEN (because the specimen cup is blocking it from fully closing).
Matt
Matt
apistomaster
New member
Sheesh, Matt, what took you so long. lol.
Ah, our old friend temperature.
My basement is running at 80 degrees, hot for it. Tanks are at 82, phytoplankton has stopped growing, etc. All because it has been so cool here the past week, we've been going without airconditioning. Very humid down there, too. I've opened the windows and turned on the fan down there to circulate some cooler air this evening. The fish are fine, but phyto has stopped.
Warmer temps will make clownfish eggs hatch faster, which gives them a better chance to escape predation and fungus. Sure makes larvae grow faster, too.
Glad you are having some success, now, Matt. You deserve it.
Kathy
My basement is running at 80 degrees, hot for it. Tanks are at 82, phytoplankton has stopped growing, etc. All because it has been so cool here the past week, we've been going without airconditioning. Very humid down there, too. I've opened the windows and turned on the fan down there to circulate some cooler air this evening. The fish are fine, but phyto has stopped.
Warmer temps will make clownfish eggs hatch faster, which gives them a better chance to escape predation and fungus. Sure makes larvae grow faster, too.
Glad you are having some success, now, Matt. You deserve it.
Kathy
Forestal
Premium Member
Matt,
first off wanted to add my praise for your hard work, I think your scientific approach has really shown what works and what doesnt.
Glad the temp thing worked... I just spent 3 hours reading the thread , can't wait to follow how this group does.
the reason i found the thread is that my mandarin pair 2 days ago repeatedly did a dance, got it on video going up to the surface and back down multiple times...they did it again tonite...
i have been looking for that coral article (found your thread first) but had been looking for benthic eggs, never looked up top, still not sure if these were actual successful spawns
if you are interested the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-485171257829151049
Although time is not very free, you have me psyched to try to follow these guys and try to raise the eggs as well, although starting cultures up will take some time
wanted to add my observations, my 2 start their dancing after the halides over my 120 go off, but actinics are still on rather than in the full dark, but looking in full dark i don't see any activity
i will start watching the water surface and anxiously await your soon to be ( i am sure ) success
first off wanted to add my praise for your hard work, I think your scientific approach has really shown what works and what doesnt.
Glad the temp thing worked... I just spent 3 hours reading the thread , can't wait to follow how this group does.
the reason i found the thread is that my mandarin pair 2 days ago repeatedly did a dance, got it on video going up to the surface and back down multiple times...they did it again tonite...
i have been looking for that coral article (found your thread first) but had been looking for benthic eggs, never looked up top, still not sure if these were actual successful spawns
if you are interested the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-485171257829151049
Although time is not very free, you have me psyched to try to follow these guys and try to raise the eggs as well, although starting cultures up will take some time
wanted to add my observations, my 2 start their dancing after the halides over my 120 go off, but actinics are still on rather than in the full dark, but looking in full dark i don't see any activity
i will start watching the water surface and anxiously await your soon to be ( i am sure ) success
mwp
In Memoriam
Thanks for all the props guys, I appreciate it. I'm doubtful much will come of this spawn as the goby larvae have a lockdown on the tank - there probably aren't many SS rotifers running around but there are tons of benthic copepods..little help I know. I'll put in some SS tomorrow, just to help out 
So yes, it DOES look like temperature definitely has played at least a partial role. A 20% hatch rate is a BIG improvement! To think a difference of 78 to 80F makes such a difference; I'm going to try more in the future at even higher temps to see if that helps further
Once I can find the optimum temperature, THEN I'll try to revisit incubators and sterilized conditions. 55...heck Mai started with only 60 larvae!
Dan, I have some questions and suggestions. First, does your tank have any "moonlights"? If not, it might be worth adding them to your aresenal.
As far as suggestions go, if you notice this courtship again, turn off all the pumps! Shortly after lights out, they SHOULD spawn...arm yourself with a good flashlight and look towards the surface after 10 minutes of total dark (if you don't have moonlights to further observe in the post-actinic lighting state).
I'm guessing you'll need the following food cultures to even have a fighting chance.
SS & L Strain Rotifers
Phyto including Nano, T-Iso and Tetraselmis
Small benthic copepods - I suspect the larvae would take to these pretty quickly at the post-meta/settlement stage (14 days).
Baby Brine of course.
Selcon (for enrichment, it's definitely made a difference in my GBG larvae survival rates)
That's what I have to offer up - good luck man!!!
Matt
So yes, it DOES look like temperature definitely has played at least a partial role. A 20% hatch rate is a BIG improvement! To think a difference of 78 to 80F makes such a difference; I'm going to try more in the future at even higher temps to see if that helps further
Once I can find the optimum temperature, THEN I'll try to revisit incubators and sterilized conditions. 55...heck Mai started with only 60 larvae!Dan, I have some questions and suggestions. First, does your tank have any "moonlights"? If not, it might be worth adding them to your aresenal.
As far as suggestions go, if you notice this courtship again, turn off all the pumps! Shortly after lights out, they SHOULD spawn...arm yourself with a good flashlight and look towards the surface after 10 minutes of total dark (if you don't have moonlights to further observe in the post-actinic lighting state).
I'm guessing you'll need the following food cultures to even have a fighting chance.
SS & L Strain Rotifers
Phyto including Nano, T-Iso and Tetraselmis
Small benthic copepods - I suspect the larvae would take to these pretty quickly at the post-meta/settlement stage (14 days).
Baby Brine of course.
Selcon (for enrichment, it's definitely made a difference in my GBG larvae survival rates)
That's what I have to offer up - good luck man!!!
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Dan, 2 more thoughts.
1. They'll make TONS of rises like that, and perhaps even a few false "bursts" before they spawn...the actual spawn only occurs on the final last rise in a big burst (see the vid buried somewhere earlier in this thread).
2. Do your best to keep track of the mandarins during their courtship in the "darkness"...check things after they "go to bed"...i.e. if 10 minutes in they're still motoring around, then they haven't spawned yet. After the last "burst", my pair makes a run for the rockwork and goes to their sleeping spots...not much postcoital activity for the mandarin pair! So, if you find the mandarins are sleeping, it is safe to assume that whatever was going to happen has happened...OK, that last comment seems a bit "obvious"
Matt
1. They'll make TONS of rises like that, and perhaps even a few false "bursts" before they spawn...the actual spawn only occurs on the final last rise in a big burst (see the vid buried somewhere earlier in this thread).
2. Do your best to keep track of the mandarins during their courtship in the "darkness"...check things after they "go to bed"...i.e. if 10 minutes in they're still motoring around, then they haven't spawned yet. After the last "burst", my pair makes a run for the rockwork and goes to their sleeping spots...not much postcoital activity for the mandarin pair! So, if you find the mandarins are sleeping, it is safe to assume that whatever was going to happen has happened...OK, that last comment seems a bit "obvious"
Matt
Forestal
Premium Member
Thanks Matt, i do have a single led moonlight, but is not enough to watch with, but i will definitely be checking now after lights out with a flashlight (maybe with red filter - so doesnt spook them)...
I appreciate the encouragement...btw your work would make an even better article with a more scientific trial and error than the coral article i think...you should consider doing that...although some few others have reported success with these guys, you have done good job documenting conditions/sucess/failures very well and this could open up the possibilities of commerically breeding these guys and having them become easy to care for /eating frozen
as far as turning off the pumps, good idea, otherwise the eggs will probably be dispersed pretty quick, they sure get the other fish excited, i think they realize its snack time
i have had limited sucess in the past with kuda and erectus fry (longest was only 2 weeks), using an eclipse tank with sponge filter drain to a 10 gallon sump with live rock and return line on other side of tank generating a circular flow (i'll post a pic)
i liked this design since it was an established tank, and needed less frequent water changes with good 40 # live rock, after a few months the tank with baby brine shrimp and rotifers (i never fully got the swing of maintaining them) developed a pretty consistent pod population too. i still did weekly 50% water changes
i started with an emperor 400 only for filtration then switched to liverock, although no live rock may be better to lessen contamination
my main problem was due to work i could only feed 2-3x /day and the fry by 10-14 days would starve....i tried greenwater with pseudo kreisels, but got better results with this setup ...i gut loaded the bbs with selco and vitachem
don' t know if this helps with some ideas
i will have to re-research the green water and rots techniques again to see what i will need... and then see where my wife will allow things to go
although Dan Underwood doesnt use green water for some of his fry raising, i think it will still be best way to gut load the rots and smaller ?ciliates as early food...
i am also considering coming up with a pseudo kreisel setup to put in my sump so water quality remains good (and less arguments with wife), so i will see what i come up with while i get ready with foods.. (btw...Dan is carrying s and l strain rots now )
I appreciate the encouragement...btw your work would make an even better article with a more scientific trial and error than the coral article i think...you should consider doing that...although some few others have reported success with these guys, you have done good job documenting conditions/sucess/failures very well and this could open up the possibilities of commerically breeding these guys and having them become easy to care for /eating frozen
as far as turning off the pumps, good idea, otherwise the eggs will probably be dispersed pretty quick, they sure get the other fish excited, i think they realize its snack time
i have had limited sucess in the past with kuda and erectus fry (longest was only 2 weeks), using an eclipse tank with sponge filter drain to a 10 gallon sump with live rock and return line on other side of tank generating a circular flow (i'll post a pic)
i liked this design since it was an established tank, and needed less frequent water changes with good 40 # live rock, after a few months the tank with baby brine shrimp and rotifers (i never fully got the swing of maintaining them) developed a pretty consistent pod population too. i still did weekly 50% water changes
i started with an emperor 400 only for filtration then switched to liverock, although no live rock may be better to lessen contamination
my main problem was due to work i could only feed 2-3x /day and the fry by 10-14 days would starve....i tried greenwater with pseudo kreisels, but got better results with this setup ...i gut loaded the bbs with selco and vitachem
don' t know if this helps with some ideas
i will have to re-research the green water and rots techniques again to see what i will need... and then see where my wife will allow things to go
although Dan Underwood doesnt use green water for some of his fry raising, i think it will still be best way to gut load the rots and smaller ?ciliates as early food...
i am also considering coming up with a pseudo kreisel setup to put in my sump so water quality remains good (and less arguments with wife), so i will see what i come up with while i get ready with foods.. (btw...Dan is carrying s and l strain rots now )
mwp
In Memoriam
Dan, a red or perhaps blue filter would do the trick I think! The big key is turn off those pumps and be patient...out of all the times I've seen them courting I think I've only had 2-3 times that DIDN'T ultimately culminate in an spawn. Even if I check with the flashlight only to spook them, the usually finish what they started...give 'em at least 15 minutes.
At least for the mandarins, I *think* SS Rotifers and copepod nauplii are working...I got to see one of our latest batch run up into the minescus this evening and literally NAIL some small food item, I *think* a small copepod. In any case, I think I've done better in general since I've added the SS Strain to my cultures.
Greenwater would likely be a savior for maintaining the nutritional qualities of food items when you're not able to be constantly enriching and adding food. Our larval tank now is more like a big mixed culture with some baby fish in it. Here's the life that's I've added over the last couple weeks, all of which is available in fluctuating quantities:
Phyto:
T-Iso
Tetraselmis
Nannochloropsus
- adding these in as needed to keep the water from becoming crystal clear
Zooplankton
SS & L Strain Rotifers...I had a crash while away but have reseeded the tank
"Tiggerpods"
A 2nd unidentified Harp. Copepod sp. that is very small and exists within my L-Strain Rotifer cultures, most likely accidentally introduced from one of my reef tanks.
I still enrich foods when I add them, but the fresh phyto no doubt plays a big role in keeping the quality of food items up after enrichment "wears off" and it ALSO seems to have helped with early survival rates on my GBG's. At best I'm only adding enriched food every day or two...probably not yet ideal but I'm still honing my larval rearing techniques and having to work it around a busy work schedule AND the fall salmon run that's approaching!
Before I write anything up that summarizing this experience I feel I NEED to get some at least through 8 weeks...at that point they'll literally look like miniature mandarins and I think that's the point at which I feel I can say I've "cracked it" as an inland hobbyist!
I ALSO think I should conduct some more controlled experiements...i.e. splitting batches etc, counting all the eggs in the batches vs. hatches - that's when the REAL data starts pouring out. To this point, I've really only been making a lot of stabs and generalizations...it could turn out that a specalized incubator at a high temperature with clean water and prophalactic medications, all in combination, produce the absolute best hatches. One other thing I didn't mention is that it had been almost 2 weeks between this spawn and the last one; granted I was out of town for several days and easily could have missed a spawn or two leading up to the full moon, but ALSO the fish weren't being fed as often while I was gone. There are just SO MANY VARIABLES.
I ALSO have that lone female #2 who is doing phenomenally well and is definitely in spawning condition...she's currently in the cardinalfish / GBG tank with our male Red Scooter Blenny (not trying to make hybrids guys, so don't worry 'bout that - he could care less about her). If I happen upon a good quality smaller male at the LFS's I will pick him up, train him onto frozen and then add him into that tank. Having spawns from 2 pairs would really help eliminate some of the guessing we've been having with regards to parental/egg quality.
---
The larval update - there are probably 10 or more larvae with eyes at this point, all actively hunting. I suspect that my "harvest and dump" of hatchlings may have killed off many of the original 50+ larvae, but I was VERY pressed for time and needed to get them out of the specimen cup...not ideal but I did what I had to do!
They're about the size of an adult tiggerpod and considering that, they look pretty similar at first glance, making an actual headcount of mandarin larvae pretty impossible at this point. The larvae are definitely actively hunting and feeding but on what I cannot say; it's one or more of those things listed above.
I'm adding in enriched SS Rots in the morning, just in case they may help!
Matt
At least for the mandarins, I *think* SS Rotifers and copepod nauplii are working...I got to see one of our latest batch run up into the minescus this evening and literally NAIL some small food item, I *think* a small copepod. In any case, I think I've done better in general since I've added the SS Strain to my cultures.
Greenwater would likely be a savior for maintaining the nutritional qualities of food items when you're not able to be constantly enriching and adding food. Our larval tank now is more like a big mixed culture with some baby fish in it. Here's the life that's I've added over the last couple weeks, all of which is available in fluctuating quantities:
Phyto:
T-Iso
Tetraselmis
Nannochloropsus
- adding these in as needed to keep the water from becoming crystal clear
Zooplankton
SS & L Strain Rotifers...I had a crash while away but have reseeded the tank
"Tiggerpods"
A 2nd unidentified Harp. Copepod sp. that is very small and exists within my L-Strain Rotifer cultures, most likely accidentally introduced from one of my reef tanks.
I still enrich foods when I add them, but the fresh phyto no doubt plays a big role in keeping the quality of food items up after enrichment "wears off" and it ALSO seems to have helped with early survival rates on my GBG's. At best I'm only adding enriched food every day or two...probably not yet ideal but I'm still honing my larval rearing techniques and having to work it around a busy work schedule AND the fall salmon run that's approaching!
Before I write anything up that summarizing this experience I feel I NEED to get some at least through 8 weeks...at that point they'll literally look like miniature mandarins and I think that's the point at which I feel I can say I've "cracked it" as an inland hobbyist!
I ALSO think I should conduct some more controlled experiements...i.e. splitting batches etc, counting all the eggs in the batches vs. hatches - that's when the REAL data starts pouring out. To this point, I've really only been making a lot of stabs and generalizations...it could turn out that a specalized incubator at a high temperature with clean water and prophalactic medications, all in combination, produce the absolute best hatches. One other thing I didn't mention is that it had been almost 2 weeks between this spawn and the last one; granted I was out of town for several days and easily could have missed a spawn or two leading up to the full moon, but ALSO the fish weren't being fed as often while I was gone. There are just SO MANY VARIABLES.
I ALSO have that lone female #2 who is doing phenomenally well and is definitely in spawning condition...she's currently in the cardinalfish / GBG tank with our male Red Scooter Blenny (not trying to make hybrids guys, so don't worry 'bout that - he could care less about her). If I happen upon a good quality smaller male at the LFS's I will pick him up, train him onto frozen and then add him into that tank. Having spawns from 2 pairs would really help eliminate some of the guessing we've been having with regards to parental/egg quality.
---
The larval update - there are probably 10 or more larvae with eyes at this point, all actively hunting. I suspect that my "harvest and dump" of hatchlings may have killed off many of the original 50+ larvae, but I was VERY pressed for time and needed to get them out of the specimen cup...not ideal but I did what I had to do!
They're about the size of an adult tiggerpod and considering that, they look pretty similar at first glance, making an actual headcount of mandarin larvae pretty impossible at this point. The larvae are definitely actively hunting and feeding but on what I cannot say; it's one or more of those things listed above.
I'm adding in enriched SS Rots in the morning, just in case they may help!
Matt
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