Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[Agu]

Dwayne did some research on mandarin breeding a while ago and found some good information, in German. Fortunately his wife was able to translate it for him . You might want to contact him.

One of the things Dwayne learned was that mandarins can get pretty frisky when spawning and jump right out of the tank. I suggest you get some kind of cover so this doesn't happen to you.

 

[jnowell]

Matt, Ugh! My whole web server no workie right now I'll figure it out, or I'll post stills, it was pretty easy and VERY effective.

Jason

 

[rsman]

Rsman....Zagi Prop Now who the heck else knows what that is other than you and me. LOL I bet it does work like a champ in that application though.

for those interested and dont know where to get one, any hobby store (online or not) that sells RC airplanes will have them they are cheap, white plastic and will move a whole lot of water even at 1 or 3 rpm and wont damage mandarin eggs

 

[jnowell]

Sounds like RSman may have the plan...and those Zagi props move a LOT of air at 20,000 rpm too

In case you're still interested in the cheap and simple kreisel, I've attached a diagram. It's all in a 10 gallon aquarium, I got a kit with hood, heater, and hang on filter for $30 at the LFS. I got the plastic 1 gallon fish bowls (flat on the front and back as they sit in the diagram) from Petco for $6.99, they are available online from them or several other retailers.

The white shelf that the fishbowls sit on is made out of plastic lighting diffuser material (eggcrate as some people call it...that one still eludes me).

Takes about 2 hours to build and set up, a drill w/ bits and some airline tubing is about all you need. Not sure if the bubbles would damage mandarin eggs or not, but they are OK for seahorse and peppermint shrimp fry. In fact, things that float tend to stay in a small rotating mass just under the surface in the upper left hand corner of the fish bowl. Obviously both bowls would be plumbed, but I left one out for simplicity.

Good luck man, I think the whole world is rooting for you

 

[mwp]

AHA! Now it makes sense! Jason, the more detailed description and diagram made it click - what you diagrammed on the right of your tank was basically (exactly) what I was picturing in my head, but couldn't figure out how I was going to make it!

Some questions for debate / discussion while we all await the next spawn (whenever that may be!).

1. I was thinking of setting up the Kriesle in the parent's aquarium immediately post spawn. Is this better or worse than moving the eggs to an emtpy/unestablished 10 gallon?

2. How much "flow" is really needed in a 1 gallon container like this? My initial thought was to use a mini power head with a ball valve to control flow (especially since the power filter option wouldn't work ina stock/hooded Nano Cube). Jason's solution is more simple/elegant, but limits the amount of control one might have.

3. Jason, I presume the air pump created most of the circulation while the slow siphon kept teh water (and eggs) "clean"? Perhaps an alterate would be to "T" off the return feed on the pump in my situation.

4. Post hatch, should the larvae stay in the kriesle for a few days or should they be transfered to a rearing tank?

5. Going back to Mai's article, he states that he has never had any success with any type of air-driven circulation, and that the "prop" was the only successful means of keeping the eggs appropriately "floating". My concerns about the prop are two-fold - first, how does it actually keep the eggs suspended, and 2nd, considering it's electronically powered, how does one regulate the speed/power to make adjustments in the flow for circulation?

6. The bridal viel I have (for coral propagation) seems like it would be too coarse for keeping the eggs in whatever container. Is a micro-type cloth better (i.e. what is used on a Plankton Sieve?) How small do we really need to go here?

---

With all that said, I personally have a plan of attack to create a better incubation scheme...using a plastic flat-sided fish bowl seems like a great way to go...but putting in the tank will present a few unique problems (like how to hang it at the surface). I look forward to any thoughts and ideas....

Matt

 

[rsman]

time for some more info.

I have not read the article in the coral mag.

however I would have to guess that 3-5" in weeks should have been 3-5mm in 2 months.

everything I tried with air turned out bad, everything from inconsistant airflow rates to water quality. some white snot(the scientific term) is normal and doesnt seem to effect hatch rates, but a lot of snot is bad and leads to poor or no hatching.

the best hatcher for me was a 2 part setup using:

a 10 g tank setup with a canister filter(easier to plumb) setup with a huge input screen covered in 100micron or smaller (while your at the hobby shop you can get CA cheap there) most of the output goes right back into the 10g, whatever I could get out of a .170ID (icemaker) tubing i put into the hatching chamber. a plastic round fish bowl, a 3/8" tube attached at the bottom to act as an overflow, which is returned to the 10g tank, then a propeller is spun very slowly a few inches off the bottom of the bowl. it doesnt keep the eggs submerged, but it keeps them off of the sides, and keeps the water moving. a light on the bottom near the drain tube and keeping the contraption in the dark, and you get babbies in the 10g and eggs stay in the hatcher. the water level in the bowl is kept near the top of the bowl, by raising the bowls top to the level in the 10g tank.

 

[rsman]

hey this post wasnt here when I started my post, which took 1 hour to write (darn TV)

1. I was thinking of setting up the Kriesle in the parent's aquarium immediately post spawn. Is this better or worse than moving the eggs to an emtpy/unestablished 10 gallon? worse several reasons, ranging from control

2. How much "flow" is really needed in a 1 gallon container like this? My initial thought was to use a mini power head with a ball valve to control flow (especially since the power filter option wouldn't work ina stock/hooded Nano Cube). Jason's solution is more simple/elegant, but limits the amount of control one might have.
put as much flow as you can, but skip the ball valve. you have to keep the water quality high but not at the expence of damaged eggs.

4. Post hatch, should the larvae stay in the kriesle for a few days or should they be transfered to a rearing tank? removed as soon as you can

5. Going back to Mai's article, he states that he has never had any success with any type of air-driven circulation, and that the "prop" was the only successful means of keeping the eggs appropriately "floating". My concerns about the prop are two-fold - first, how does it actually keep the eggs suspended, and 2nd, considering it's electronically powered, how does one regulate the speed/power to make adjustments in the flow for circulation? electronically powered is about the ONLY way you can keep the speed adjustable and reliable however a 3 rpm motor will do fine. they are not easily adjustable and are geared down but do a great job, and are cheap (surplus $5~$15)

6. The bridal viel I have (for coral propagation) seems like it would be too coarse for keeping the eggs in whatever container. Is a micro-type cloth better (i.e. what is used on a Plankton Sieve?) How small do we really need to go here? dont even go there these eggs are FRAGILE one more reason air doesnt work.

 

[jnowell]

Matt, if the air is bad for the delicate mandarin eggs, then my kreisel is a moot point. But if you or anyone is interested, here are a few points I left out.

You made mention of the lack of control...some parts I left out of the diagram are the little green airflow adjuster valves. I use these to control the amount of water being syphoned, and the amount of air coming in. I'm definitely not saying completely controllable, but it does help.

The beauty of this system (for fry) is that you can close the valve for incoming water....feed....and when they are done eating, you can re-open the valve and flush the uneaten food out into the 10 gallon. My 10 gallon also has a Magnum 350 cannister filter on it...it doesn't matter what kind of turbulence you create outside the fishbowl, so filtration can be whatever you have on hand. I've had this plumbed into a 29 gallon sump with Mag-3 return pump too. This has been a pet project of mine for a while, most things I raise don't even need it, but it does make maintenance a little easier and looks really cool in your fish room

Good luck, RSman definitely has the ticket here....not to mention the experience!

 

[jnowell]

Oh, also my web server is back up, so you can see the vid of the kreisel in action now.

http://www.wfrs.org/sh/SH_babies.wmv

 

[mwp]

WOW, very cool! Something like that may actually work with the Mandarin eggs...hMMMMMMMM

Matt

 

[David M]

Those just have to be kuda , see how they swim with their tails curled up under them?

 

[jnowell]

Good Eye David! Indeed they are kudas. 150 of them on thier first brood I was thinking, good god, how many will they have next time....well....40. I've changed up their diet a bit (beta glucan and selco enrichment once per day, and mysis/mysids fro 3 different companies. He was preggo again this monring, so we'll know in about two weeks.

Jason

 

[mwp]

Alrighty you two...enough about the seahorses...shouldn't that be it's own thread?!?!

Just wanted to come back with a behavioural update on our Mandarin pair. Over the last couple evenings I haven't witnessed any pre-spawn rises or major courtship, but there has been some "sparring" of sorts between our two. It's clear the male wants to mate, while the female just doesn't seem quite ready....

It's also worth mentioning that the male mandarin seems to have FINALLY gotten on the Turbinaria "feeding station" bandwagon...he's starting to regain some weight which no doubt can only help our next spawn! Guess I need to get crackin' on the Kriesel!!!

MP

 

[jnowell]

< /seahorse talk >

That's great news about the male eating from the station. I'm watching with great interest...I was actually eye-balling a pair of mandarins at LFS last night. I almost did it, but I really don't think I've got the time with all of my other stuff going on.

Sounds like your next spawn isn't too far off! Good luck with it.

Jason

 

[mwp]

Well, it's 4-28-06, technically early AM 4-29-06 - the mandarins have been going through heavy courtship (lots of dancing / rising) and the female is HUGE again. I've quickly constructed our Kriesel...this one is just air-operated. Gonna be waiting up late for the spawn - wish me luck (and them too...I'd hate to see this not happen tonight).

Matt

 

[mwp]

1:14 AM Central time - we've had two false spawns...everything comes together right at the surface, lots of FAST fin vibrating, then poof. Unfortunately, no eggs floating on the surface and I think my flashlight may have spooked them when I double checked. (BTW, all pumps were turned out with the lights at 1:00 AM).

MP

 

[mwp]

1:28 AM,4-29-06 - WE HAVE A SPAWN!.

 

[mwp]

Well, I *think* I have the Kriesle running pretty well...about 50% of the eggs are making gentle round trips in the 1 gallon bowl. Meanwhile, the other 50% are still floating at the surface.

Here's the thing that worries me - we have VERY large copepod populations in the main tank, and in the process of collecting, invariably we've ended up with a fair amount of copepods in the kriesle. Most eggs have at least one copepod hanging on...some have several (as many as 4-5 per egg). Are these copepods going to destroy the eggs before they ever have a chance?!?!

I'm worried about the eggs at the surface too - in our first attempt (simple specimen cup) as evaporation occured, the eggs got left high and dry on the sides of the container....if they're floating and water levels drop...bye bye larvae!

Wow, I never realized there were so many factors working against them. All the same, we only need to raise one (looks like we got around 100-150 eggs to work with this time but that's a TOTAL GUESTIMATE).

MP

 

[mako56]

Very Very cool, I hope you get this figured out. I can just imagine what little mandarins would look like. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mwp]

Well, it's now 8:45 AM and I have to say that I owe Jason a big thanks for posting his Kriesel designs - that was the stroke of genious I had been looking for. I don't know if Mai ever tried a Kreisle type setup, but it seems to work really well for these eggs now...none are on the bottom, none are on the top, they're all making gentle slow round-the-world trips! Definitely a big improvement for mandarin incubation! So far none of the eggs look damaged by the copepods...hmm...

Matt