Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
- Thread starter mwp
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Luis A M
Premium Member
Matt,your thread is a thriller,weÃ"šÃ‚´re all breathless waiting for new developments!
I didnÃ"šÃ‚´t feed back cause I have no experience with pelagic eggs,other than two Centropyge species.I once had a S.splendidus pair making their spawn rise every evening in a reef tank,but could never see any egg,may be there werenÃ"šÃ‚´t any
But IÃ"šÃ‚´d like to contribute somehow with your project,which is in the edge of the mostly unexplored territory of breeding ornamental pelagic spawners.I think mandarins are the right entrance gate to this territory,since they have been raised on some occasions.
I have two comments:
1-You must be sure that you get fertile eggs.If you have a dissection scope,put some eggs in a tall petri dish and check them for early development.Pelagic eggs are fast developers,so you will know.If theyÃ"šÃ‚´re not fertile,you donÃ"šÃ‚´t have to break your head with:
2-Incubation technique-I saw the description of W.MaiÃ"šÃ‚´s apparatus in the German book,and canÃ"šÃ‚´t understand the meaning/function of the propeller.Are the eggs supposed to be sucked halfway downwards in the whirlpool without being actually hit?
Again,I donÃ"šÃ‚´t have experience with pelagic eggs,but there is a large experience in commercial food fish aquaculture where all the eggs are pelagic.They donÃ"šÃ‚´t do anything special to them,other than keeping them in large aerated tanks...
Good luck with your mandarins!
I didnÃ"šÃ‚´t feed back cause I have no experience with pelagic eggs,other than two Centropyge species.I once had a S.splendidus pair making their spawn rise every evening in a reef tank,but could never see any egg,may be there werenÃ"šÃ‚´t any
But IÃ"šÃ‚´d like to contribute somehow with your project,which is in the edge of the mostly unexplored territory of breeding ornamental pelagic spawners.I think mandarins are the right entrance gate to this territory,since they have been raised on some occasions.
I have two comments:
1-You must be sure that you get fertile eggs.If you have a dissection scope,put some eggs in a tall petri dish and check them for early development.Pelagic eggs are fast developers,so you will know.If theyÃ"šÃ‚´re not fertile,you donÃ"šÃ‚´t have to break your head with:
2-Incubation technique-I saw the description of W.MaiÃ"šÃ‚´s apparatus in the German book,and canÃ"šÃ‚´t understand the meaning/function of the propeller.Are the eggs supposed to be sucked halfway downwards in the whirlpool without being actually hit?
Again,I donÃ"šÃ‚´t have experience with pelagic eggs,but there is a large experience in commercial food fish aquaculture where all the eggs are pelagic.They donÃ"šÃ‚´t do anything special to them,other than keeping them in large aerated tanks...
Good luck with your mandarins!
mwp
In Memoriam
Looked in the "Stirrer" - WE HAVE LARVAE THERE TOO! Well, so far that sums it up - BOTH the KRIESEL and the "STIRRER" I implemented DO WORK, at least for the first 24 hours. I wonder if my past spawns weren't fertile or if I just didn't noticed (because I wasn't expecting the hatch until day 3). Apparently by this time tomorrow they'll be feeding.....
MP
MP
OldmillXxX
Premium Member
That is simply awesome!
You might want to start jotting down a list like water parameters, lighting type, wattage, cycle, etc..., water temp, PH, other tank inhabitants, etc..., etc...
As soon as the rest of the forum catches wind of this, it could easily turn into a need to know all thread! With any luck on rearing the little tikes, quality of data kept, and overall interest, I can easily see this thread taking home the thread of the month.
Not too many ever get to be a part of mating mandarins. This is something special, indeed!
Good luck and I cannot wait to see the little devils.
PM me when you get a chance...
You might want to start jotting down a list like water parameters, lighting type, wattage, cycle, etc..., water temp, PH, other tank inhabitants, etc..., etc...
As soon as the rest of the forum catches wind of this, it could easily turn into a need to know all thread! With any luck on rearing the little tikes, quality of data kept, and overall interest, I can easily see this thread taking home the thread of the month.
Not too many ever get to be a part of mating mandarins. This is something special, indeed!
Good luck and I cannot wait to see the little devils.
PM me when you get a chance...
mwp
In Memoriam
Mandarin Larvae
Mandarin Larvae
Ok, it's 4:20 PM, took some more shots of the larvae in the kriesel.
This first picture, the black bar is either part of the wrought iron stand (about 2" in front of the larvae) or less likely, it my be my black airline tubing....I honestly don't remember which. I took another look...i'm 99% sure that it's AIRTUBING on the outside of the kriesel (less than 1" in front of the larvae in the pic).
So far they're swimming upside down (which is apparently what they're supposed to do).
MP
Mandarin Larvae
Ok, it's 4:20 PM, took some more shots of the larvae in the kriesel.
This first picture, the black bar is either part of the wrought iron stand (about 2" in front of the larvae) or less likely, it my be my black airline tubing....I honestly don't remember which. I took another look...i'm 99% sure that it's AIRTUBING on the outside of the kriesel (less than 1" in front of the larvae in the pic).
So far they're swimming upside down (which is apparently what they're supposed to do).
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Tim, what kind of data would be helpful? Here's a quick rundown of the parent's tank:
24 Gallon Nano Cube, Reef Style, stock filtration with the addition of purigen, an airstone and live rock rubble in the middle chamber. A MiniJet 404 pump is set in the corner underneath the outflow and is on a wave timer - it typically runs in 15 minute bursts for a few hours in the afternoon and is running at night.
LIvestock in the tank (besides mandarins) currently includes:
2m/1f Hippocampus barbouri
6 or so Astrea sp.
6 or so Nerite sp.
6 or so Cerith sp.
6 or so Nassarius sp. (Tongans)
2 Pacific Conchs
Several Gorgonians both photo and non-photo
Cup Coral (Turbinaria) as a feeding station
Galaxea
Rhodactis scanthomae (spellling...I just added them).
2 Harlequin Serptent Stars
Xenia (silverbar)
An unknown Octocoral (like daisy / clove polyps but different)
A few misc Yellow Polyps
Caulerpa prolifera, racemosa, and 2 more species
Red Gracilaria
20 lbs. live sand
about 20 lbs. live rock (good cured stuff when added)
Typically water quality looks like this:
Temp - 75 to 80F
Salinity - 32-34 ppm
Specific Gravity - 1.024 - 1.026
pH - 8.0-8.1 usually
Alkalinity - 3 meq/L typically
Free Ammonia - usually 0ppm
Total Ammonia - typically 0.5 to 1.0 ppm
Nitrite - always 0.00 ppm
Nitrate - usually very low (coming out at 0.0 most times)
Phosphate - 0.5 ppm the last time I tested it (april 2)
Iodine - 0 (as it's supposed to be)
Iodide - I dose regularly and it always still tests out at 0.00 ppm
Silicate - 0
Iron - never detectable even though I dose
Calcium - last time I tested it, 360 ppm
Lighting - Stock Nano Cube 24 lighting (2 36 watt 50/50 Power Compacts) - typically on by 10:00 AM, typically off around 12:00 AM.
Food wise these fish get the same broad mix of frozen foods as my cardinalfish with the exception that they don't currently get Formula 1 or 2. So, basically Brine in the forms of SFB Spirulina Brine, Omega 3 Brine, and Hikari Enriched Brine. Mysis by Hikari, SFB and Piscene Energetics. "Plankton" from Hikari (big little shrimps like the PE Mysis). Cyclopeze. Foods are soaked in Selcon and/or Ocean Rider's Vibrance II.
That about sums it up. Water changes haven't really been necessary in this tank, although it did get a 5 gallon change last week when I used some of the water to refill the 10 gallon larval tank.
MP
24 Gallon Nano Cube, Reef Style, stock filtration with the addition of purigen, an airstone and live rock rubble in the middle chamber. A MiniJet 404 pump is set in the corner underneath the outflow and is on a wave timer - it typically runs in 15 minute bursts for a few hours in the afternoon and is running at night.
LIvestock in the tank (besides mandarins) currently includes:
2m/1f Hippocampus barbouri
6 or so Astrea sp.
6 or so Nerite sp.
6 or so Cerith sp.
6 or so Nassarius sp. (Tongans)
2 Pacific Conchs
Several Gorgonians both photo and non-photo
Cup Coral (Turbinaria) as a feeding station
Galaxea
Rhodactis scanthomae (spellling...I just added them).
2 Harlequin Serptent Stars
Xenia (silverbar)
An unknown Octocoral (like daisy / clove polyps but different)
A few misc Yellow Polyps
Caulerpa prolifera, racemosa, and 2 more species
Red Gracilaria
20 lbs. live sand
about 20 lbs. live rock (good cured stuff when added)
Typically water quality looks like this:
Temp - 75 to 80F
Salinity - 32-34 ppm
Specific Gravity - 1.024 - 1.026
pH - 8.0-8.1 usually
Alkalinity - 3 meq/L typically
Free Ammonia - usually 0ppm
Total Ammonia - typically 0.5 to 1.0 ppm
Nitrite - always 0.00 ppm
Nitrate - usually very low (coming out at 0.0 most times)
Phosphate - 0.5 ppm the last time I tested it (april 2)
Iodine - 0 (as it's supposed to be)
Iodide - I dose regularly and it always still tests out at 0.00 ppm
Silicate - 0
Iron - never detectable even though I dose
Calcium - last time I tested it, 360 ppm
Lighting - Stock Nano Cube 24 lighting (2 36 watt 50/50 Power Compacts) - typically on by 10:00 AM, typically off around 12:00 AM.
Food wise these fish get the same broad mix of frozen foods as my cardinalfish with the exception that they don't currently get Formula 1 or 2. So, basically Brine in the forms of SFB Spirulina Brine, Omega 3 Brine, and Hikari Enriched Brine. Mysis by Hikari, SFB and Piscene Energetics. "Plankton" from Hikari (big little shrimps like the PE Mysis). Cyclopeze. Foods are soaked in Selcon and/or Ocean Rider's Vibrance II.
That about sums it up. Water changes haven't really been necessary in this tank, although it did get a 5 gallon change last week when I used some of the water to refill the 10 gallon larval tank.
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OH, some other notes on husbandry. I use Reef Crystals salt. I regularly dose Seachem's Reef Plus, Reef Complete, Reef Calcium, and Reef Iodide, as well as Reef Builder / Buffer (not as often as I should be doing lately..life is busy). I also utlize Kent's Marine Iron Supplement in this tank, but again on a very lose dosage (as I had it indirectly cause a perkinsus bloom in the clam tank that literally wiped out every bivalve).
I also forgot to mention that I've seeded this tank with Stomatellas from my other tanks - GREAT snails if you can get your hands on 'em! The reproduce relatively quickly to MEET the micro-algae growth in the tank, keeping things in relative check, and I've seen them going to town on Red Cyano (I have a touch of it in the Seahorse / Mandarin tank right now...mostly on the SEAHORSES and a couple of the gorgonians).
MP
I also forgot to mention that I've seeded this tank with Stomatellas from my other tanks - GREAT snails if you can get your hands on 'em! The reproduce relatively quickly to MEET the micro-algae growth in the tank, keeping things in relative check, and I've seen them going to town on Red Cyano (I have a touch of it in the Seahorse / Mandarin tank right now...mostly on the SEAHORSES and a couple of the gorgonians).
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, something fun while we wait for the next 18 hours or so for the larvae to get their eyes...more "husbandry" notes. I described a couple pages ago how I trained these mandarins onto 100% frozen foods - I figured it might be neat to show the "Turbinaria" feeding station in action. To sum it up, I soak & defrost the foods in the fridge, then place the rigid 1" tubing down to the cup coral. I use forceps to pick the "meat" out of the soup and drop it into the top of the 1" tube, provided direct delivery down into the cup coral.
So here's some vids...they're big (15 MB or so, Quicktime format). The clicky-clak sound you hear is the camera refocusing...better to just turn the volume off (and I don't have time to convert these all into Flash and strip out the audio). They're uploading as I type this, so not every link will work right away...give it an hour if need be...
1. Food comes down and the two male barbouri fight over first dibs (as always). http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2079.MOV
2. While the males are off fighting (the smaller one snicks stuff out of the water column all the time, he's not so "tied" to the feeding station) the FEMALE comes up. She's still getting the hang of it (and is much more cautious). http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2080.MOV
3. Mrs. Mandarin makes her appearance at the buffet. http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2081.MOV
4. Mr. Mandarin always takes his sweet time. Usually, as it happens this time, Mrs. Mandarin comes back for a 2nd helping (gotta keep makin' babies afterall)! http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2083.MOV
SOOOO....do I black out the sides of the larval tank? Thoughts?
Matt
So here's some vids...they're big (15 MB or so, Quicktime format). The clicky-clak sound you hear is the camera refocusing...better to just turn the volume off (and I don't have time to convert these all into Flash and strip out the audio). They're uploading as I type this, so not every link will work right away...give it an hour if need be...
1. Food comes down and the two male barbouri fight over first dibs (as always). http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2079.MOV
2. While the males are off fighting (the smaller one snicks stuff out of the water column all the time, he's not so "tied" to the feeding station) the FEMALE comes up. She's still getting the hang of it (and is much more cautious). http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2080.MOV
3. Mrs. Mandarin makes her appearance at the buffet. http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2081.MOV
4. Mr. Mandarin always takes his sweet time. Usually, as it happens this time, Mrs. Mandarin comes back for a 2nd helping (gotta keep makin' babies afterall)! http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2083.MOV
SOOOO....do I black out the sides of the larval tank? Thoughts?
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
11:00 PM - so another quick update seeing as I'll be gone by 12:00 pm tomorrow! Tonight I worked out a feeding schedule with Renee. Basically, we're straining the rotifer/copepod co-cultures as well as the tiggerpod cultures through 120 micron and collecting the outflow with 10 micron sieves respectively. It looks good so far, mostly rotifers and little copepods (I'm assuming) and will probably be good enough to tide these guys over! I added some in tonight to show Renee how to do it; granted the fish won't be eating until this time tomorrow at the earliest.
Still, the same questions remain...do I "de-kriesel" the babies or leave them in, and do I darken the tank sides or not. There's no direct light, although the tank is next to my phyto/orchid culturing racks...a total of 10 40 watt flourescents close by.
HMMMMMMMMMMMM.
Matt
Still, the same questions remain...do I "de-kriesel" the babies or leave them in, and do I darken the tank sides or not. There's no direct light, although the tank is next to my phyto/orchid culturing racks...a total of 10 40 watt flourescents close by.
HMMMMMMMMMMMM.
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, this one is going to blow your mind. It's 12:25. This picture is a Mandarin larvae approximately 25 hours after spawning.
OK, so first things first, although I can't actually SEE any EYES, I can say that apparently their SENSES (lateral line?) are working...they swim away rather quickly when I put the pipette in to suck one out. Took about 5 minutes to gently get one for photographing.
To the naked eye under ambient light they're barely noticeable. When I take the flashlight to them, they appear a light transluscent olive green (of course you lose this when viewing them with such strong backlighting in the photograph). Anyway, WOW.
MP
OK, so first things first, although I can't actually SEE any EYES, I can say that apparently their SENSES (lateral line?) are working...they swim away rather quickly when I put the pipette in to suck one out. Took about 5 minutes to gently get one for photographing.
To the naked eye under ambient light they're barely noticeable. When I take the flashlight to them, they appear a light transluscent olive green (of course you lose this when viewing them with such strong backlighting in the photograph). Anyway, WOW.
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, so about 12 hours from now I'm gone and the Mandarins are going to be in Renee's charge 
I'm going to encourage her to post whatever she likes here, including any urgent needs for help so please be helpful in any way you can if she posts! I'll probably get two more larval photos up before I go...I'll have the camera so as long as we can collectively keep them alive through Sunday evening, I'll be able to get another set of pics then!!!
So here's my battle plan. I've seen NO mention of the sides being covered, but I will likely cover at least some of them before I go...still not sure on this.
With regards to feeding, the strategy is to feed 2X per day with rotifers/copepods that are seived first through 120 micron and then collected in via 10 micron...so the size range of any live foods offered should be 10-119 microns The cultures themselves are going to be feed TWICE per day with stored live phyto mix containing roughly equal parts Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Nannochloropsis and 1/2 the Isocrysis (I'm still ramping up this culture). We're also going to add some (But not a lot) to the larval tank, more to keep the foods going vs. going a "greenwater" route. There's already a fair copepod population in this tank from prior feedings (I'll never be able to get rid of them without sterlizing it) and there is some "gunk" as well so hopefully things will work out.
I'm going to keep the larvae in the Kriesel but tonight (next 15 minutes or so) will be releasing the larvae from the "Stirrer" as there's no easy way to feed items that are in it and I have it turned off. Renee will try to feed both the main tank AND the kriesel.
That about sums up the battle plan. I PM'd RSMAN to get any additional info he might be able to provide (not sure if he CAN divulge info or not)...anyway...RSMAN, I know you've done it, so any help you CAN provide, by all means please do
Wish us (and especially those larvae) lots of luck! Sounds like if we can get them to 14 days we're GOLD...baby brine is EASY from that point!
MP
I'm going to encourage her to post whatever she likes here, including any urgent needs for help so please be helpful in any way you can if she posts! I'll probably get two more larval photos up before I go...I'll have the camera so as long as we can collectively keep them alive through Sunday evening, I'll be able to get another set of pics then!!!So here's my battle plan. I've seen NO mention of the sides being covered, but I will likely cover at least some of them before I go...still not sure on this.
With regards to feeding, the strategy is to feed 2X per day with rotifers/copepods that are seived first through 120 micron and then collected in via 10 micron...so the size range of any live foods offered should be 10-119 microns
The cultures themselves are going to be feed TWICE per day with stored live phyto mix containing roughly equal parts Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Nannochloropsis and 1/2 the Isocrysis (I'm still ramping up this culture). We're also going to add some (But not a lot) to the larval tank, more to keep the foods going vs. going a "greenwater" route. There's already a fair copepod population in this tank from prior feedings (I'll never be able to get rid of them without sterlizing it) and there is some "gunk" as well so hopefully things will work out.I'm going to keep the larvae in the Kriesel but tonight (next 15 minutes or so) will be releasing the larvae from the "Stirrer" as there's no easy way to feed items that are in it and I have it turned off. Renee will try to feed both the main tank AND the kriesel.
That about sums up the battle plan. I PM'd RSMAN to get any additional info he might be able to provide (not sure if he CAN divulge info or not)...anyway...RSMAN, I know you've done it, so any help you CAN provide, by all means please do
Wish us (and especially those larvae) lots of luck! Sounds like if we can get them to 14 days we're GOLD...baby brine is EASY from that point!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OK, last post and I'm literally out the door. So the final phytomix has been skewed a wee bit more towards Isocrysis on the advice of RSMAN. The final mix is 50% T-Iso, 25% Tetraselmis and 25% Nannochloropsis.
I've added 4 basters of this mix to the tank and placed the rest in the fridge. I've also dosed with Reef Plus (1/2 cap)...can't hurt. So, starting this evening Renee will be seiving the rotifer/copepod/tiggerpod cultures and adding in another 4 basters...that will happen twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday.
I'm so very anxious...I can see a 1 CM baby mandarin swimming around at 2 months and I LOVE the idea
Wish us TONS of luck!
MP
I've added 4 basters of this mix to the tank and placed the rest in the fridge. I've also dosed with Reef Plus (1/2 cap)...can't hurt. So, starting this evening Renee will be seiving the rotifer/copepod/tiggerpod cultures and adding in another 4 basters...that will happen twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday.
I'm so very anxious...I can see a 1 CM baby mandarin swimming around at 2 months and I LOVE the idea
Wish us TONS of luck!
MP
jnowell
New member
Matt,
I'm so glad the kreisel is working out...this is awesome man! My seahorse babies are doing very well, so you and Renee can have ALL of my luck!
With the little experience I have in raising clown and seahorses, I think the kreisel should be turned off. Being as the mandarins don't have fully developed eyes, I'm sure they hunt by tracking the tiny vibrations of the pods and rotifers. My thinking is that this will be easier for them in still water, but I don't KNOW anything about this.
My LFS got a wonderful looking pair of mandarins in, and I have them on hold. Not sure I'll ever get a spawn, but dangit I just HAVE to try now.
Congrats on an incredible thread/experience man!
Good luck Renee, we are all rooting for YOU now
Jason
I'm so glad the kreisel is working out...this is awesome man! My seahorse babies are doing very well, so you and Renee can have ALL of my luck!
With the little experience I have in raising clown and seahorses, I think the kreisel should be turned off. Being as the mandarins don't have fully developed eyes, I'm sure they hunt by tracking the tiny vibrations of the pods and rotifers. My thinking is that this will be easier for them in still water, but I don't KNOW anything about this.
My LFS got a wonderful looking pair of mandarins in, and I have them on hold. Not sure I'll ever get a spawn, but dangit I just HAVE to try now.
Congrats on an incredible thread/experience man!
Good luck Renee, we are all rooting for YOU now
Jason
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