Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
- Thread starter mwp
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mwp
In Memoriam
11:57 - pump is back off....they're still playing around with each other but haven't risen since I turned the pump on...but you gotta keep that bacteria alive 
I'm going to give them a bit longer yet before I turn everything back on for the night...hopefully I'll come back into the room to find a spawn, but at this point I'd rather have them try again tomorrow! GO TO SLEEP MANDARINS!
MP
I'm going to give them a bit longer yet before I turn everything back on for the night...hopefully I'll come back into the room to find a spawn, but at this point I'd rather have them try again tomorrow! GO TO SLEEP MANDARINS!MP
mwp
In Memoriam
5-17-06 - Well, it's 12:27, I've just come back to find the surface of the tank covered in eggs. That's right, we have YET ANOTHER MANDARIN SPAWN! That means they're currently spawning every 48 HOURS!
After some thought, I'm going to try yet ANOTHER method...mini standalone kriesel...my only concern is the TEMPERATURE....room temps are around 70F usually. Oh well, it's WORTH A SHOT, no?
I'm also thinking I may need to separate out the male from the female for a few days...I'm starting to get a little worried about "burnout" in the female...she can't keep producing this many eggs for a LONG time (i.e. a couple years) can she???
MP
After some thought, I'm going to try yet ANOTHER method...mini standalone kriesel...my only concern is the TEMPERATURE....room temps are around 70F usually. Oh well, it's WORTH A SHOT, no?
I'm also thinking I may need to separate out the male from the female for a few days...I'm starting to get a little worried about "burnout" in the female...she can't keep producing this many eggs for a LONG time (i.e. a couple years) can she???
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Well, I think I found the PLACE for my mini kriesel...the cabinet that houses my desktop computer. I'm going to steal the digital thermometer from my larval tank to see exactly how warm it is in there before making any final decisions, but it very well might be the perfect dark & warm spot for some mandarin incubation...
Right now though, I have to come up with some replacement water for the quart I just took out!
Matt
Right now though, I have to come up with some replacement water for the quart I just took out!
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Well, the temperature in the cabinet is over 90F.....too hot. That won't work. Plan "B" is to rest it on the cover of the larval tank - I'll get a temp there in a minute...
Meanwhile, I've swirled my finger in the bowl a couple times to keep the stuff "moving"...I think I see how the stirrers really work...my minijet-driven unit comes close but the "propeller" based stirrers probably do a better job.
AHA, I think I've found almost the perfect spot...the air at the desk on top of the "hot box" is hovering between 75.4 and 75.5. The added bonus is that I get to watch the eggs at any given moment tomorrow just by shifting my eyes...I think this may be the spot...
So it's 1:10 AM and the "mini kreisel" consisting of nothing more than a 1 quart plastic aquarium bowl and an air feed is in place and I gotta say, WOW was that tooooooo easy. With the single feed, all the eggs are making round the world trips in the kriesel and the surface water is also eddying ever so slightly...everything is getting gentle circular flow...no real dead spots. Granted, by tomorrow I may find all my eggs on the bottom...I'm running it at around 4-5 bubbles per second. I'm also going to tape the air feed in place so that it doesn't move, but FIRST I'm going to take another little bit of helpful advice and run the airfeed through the hood of the 24 gallon tank next to it...we'll have some "warmed up" air entering the kriesel. I repositioned my laptop ever so slightly...76.0 F is the reading right outside the kriesel now...going to leave that thermometer IN the kriesel tonight and hope for the best.
WIERD WIERD WIERD but why not. I'll shoot a picture of this "desktop" setup probably tomorrow AM.
MP
Meanwhile, I've swirled my finger in the bowl a couple times to keep the stuff "moving"...I think I see how the stirrers really work...my minijet-driven unit comes close but the "propeller" based stirrers probably do a better job.
AHA, I think I've found almost the perfect spot...the air at the desk on top of the "hot box" is hovering between 75.4 and 75.5. The added bonus is that I get to watch the eggs at any given moment tomorrow just by shifting my eyes...I think this may be the spot...
So it's 1:10 AM and the "mini kreisel" consisting of nothing more than a 1 quart plastic aquarium bowl and an air feed is in place and I gotta say, WOW was that tooooooo easy. With the single feed, all the eggs are making round the world trips in the kriesel and the surface water is also eddying ever so slightly...everything is getting gentle circular flow...no real dead spots. Granted, by tomorrow I may find all my eggs on the bottom...I'm running it at around 4-5 bubbles per second. I'm also going to tape the air feed in place so that it doesn't move, but FIRST I'm going to take another little bit of helpful advice and run the airfeed through the hood of the 24 gallon tank next to it...we'll have some "warmed up" air entering the kriesel. I repositioned my laptop ever so slightly...76.0 F is the reading right outside the kriesel now...going to leave that thermometer IN the kriesel tonight and hope for the best.
WIERD WIERD WIERD but why not. I'll shoot a picture of this "desktop" setup probably tomorrow AM.
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
"I'm too EXCIIIIITTED to sleep"! I've checked el mini kriesel a couple times since setting it up. The first time I found a lot of eggs kinda "stuck" on the far side of the upward flow along the curved wall of the tank...i.e. not floating on the surface, but kinda close too it. So I raised the air feed just a bit.
This latest check, everything seems to be going smoothly..maybe 40-50 eggs are floating on the surface but the rest are still subsurface making trips around the kriesel. The new problem? CAT HAIR! It's sticking to the air tubing and in turn the eggs are sticking to it! Wasn't sure if that was good or bad, but I pulled the hair out for now...we're talking just a couple small hairs....
(I am SOOOOO tired of having bad hatches...please work please work please work).
Matt (the frustrated unsuccessful larval rearer).
This latest check, everything seems to be going smoothly..maybe 40-50 eggs are floating on the surface but the rest are still subsurface making trips around the kriesel. The new problem? CAT HAIR! It's sticking to the air tubing and in turn the eggs are sticking to it! Wasn't sure if that was good or bad, but I pulled the hair out for now...we're talking just a couple small hairs....
(I am SOOOOO tired of having bad hatches...please work please work please work).
Matt (the frustrated unsuccessful larval rearer).
r00onmac
DVM in training
heres the cleaner vid... pardon the black border... final cut pro wouldnt let me shrink the "canvas" so to speak.. youll need the newest quicktime because i encoded it with H.264 so that it is smaller than the original one i made...
open in quicktime, stretch it to screen sized and watch away... i used every trick in the book to get this much out of the vid, i dont think there is much more "info" left in the original video file..
http://media.putfile.com/Mandarin-mating-clearer
open in quicktime, stretch it to screen sized and watch away... i used every trick in the book to get this much out of the vid, i dont think there is much more "info" left in the original video file..
http://media.putfile.com/Mandarin-mating-clearer
mwp
In Memoriam
Matt, Very cool. It is a bit easier to tell what's going on in this newer version. I also figured out a direct url to download it (right click, save target as...)
http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/13611123660.mov
BTW, the original spawning video is at http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2435_splash2_best.MOV
Thanks for revamping it - hopefully more folks can enjoy it now!
MP
http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/13611123660.mov
BTW, the original spawning video is at http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2435_splash2_best.MOV
Thanks for revamping it - hopefully more folks can enjoy it now!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
1:20 PM on the 17th, I think the mini kriesel is working out well so far. Here's a pic as well as a video of it in action:
Vid is around 4 MB
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2468_minikriesel.MOV
BTW, still not a single egg on the bottom and still 40-50 floating around the surface but they are MOVING, not stuck in one place. This could be the big one...I should see a hatch somewhere between 4-8 PM tonight and by that time tomorrow they should be on food.....
MP
Vid is around 4 MB
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2468_minikriesel.MOV
BTW, still not a single egg on the bottom and still 40-50 floating around the surface but they are MOVING, not stuck in one place. This could be the big one...I should see a hatch somewhere between 4-8 PM tonight and by that time tomorrow they should be on food.....
MP
Luis A M
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7303351#post7303351 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
2-Incubation technique-I saw the description of W.MaiÃ"šÃ‚´s apparatus in the German book,and canÃ"šÃ‚´t understand the meaning/function of the propeller.Are the eggs supposed to be sucked halfway downwards in the whirlpool without being actually hit?
Again,I donÃ"šÃ‚´t have experience with pelagic eggs,but there is a large experience in commercial food fish aquaculture where all the eggs are pelagic.They donÃ"šÃ‚´t do anything special to them,other than keeping them in large aerated tanks...
Good luck with your mandarins!
Matt,IÃ"šÃ‚´m sure you were too busy to reply
But could you explain the idea behind that propeller thing?
mwp
In Memoriam
Hey Luis...the gist is to keep the eggs from hitting the sides or getting stuck at the top (i.e. my first attempt to incubate in the specimen cup I had a LOT of eggs above the water line when I returned due to evaporation).
The setup of the propellers - somewhere earlier in this thread is a couple links to some pictures..i.e. someone built one out of legos. Basically, an electric motor above the incubation vessel drives a shaft with a model airplane propeller attached in the water..it slowly stirs the water in the incubation vessel.
There would be a couple main differences between the propeller and something like the kriesel. First, the kriesel circulates the eggs on a vertical plane...with the propeller it would be a horizontal plane. I could see one of those 1-2 gallon "squat" round fish bowls being the perfect vessel for a "stirrer"). Second, there's no use of air to stir the eggs which (according to Mai) air doesn't work. My experience with my air-only-driven kriesel kinda puts that "theory" out the window. Third, I think the air-driven method allows for some easier deployment - it's all stuff we can EASILY get at our LFS if we don't already have it sitting around. Finally, I'm not sure if it's a plus or minus, but the air driven methods I've tried allow for really easy fine tuning of the circulation...to set the same thing up with the electric motor / propeller is definitely POSSIBLE but I doubt it's as cheap. However, the air seems to need more fiddling...once you get the stirrer speed right you could probably just mark it on a dail and every time you need it, it could be "set it" and "forget it".
Anyways, I guess the propeller would also create some turbulence in a different manner than the air does...granted until I set up a propeller-driven stirrer I really can't speak on any of the merits/downsides as I don't yet have the experience
FWIW,
Matt
The setup of the propellers - somewhere earlier in this thread is a couple links to some pictures..i.e. someone built one out of legos. Basically, an electric motor above the incubation vessel drives a shaft with a model airplane propeller attached in the water..it slowly stirs the water in the incubation vessel.
There would be a couple main differences between the propeller and something like the kriesel. First, the kriesel circulates the eggs on a vertical plane...with the propeller it would be a horizontal plane. I could see one of those 1-2 gallon "squat" round fish bowls being the perfect vessel for a "stirrer"). Second, there's no use of air to stir the eggs which (according to Mai) air doesn't work. My experience with my air-only-driven kriesel kinda puts that "theory" out the window. Third, I think the air-driven method allows for some easier deployment - it's all stuff we can EASILY get at our LFS if we don't already have it sitting around. Finally, I'm not sure if it's a plus or minus, but the air driven methods I've tried allow for really easy fine tuning of the circulation...to set the same thing up with the electric motor / propeller is definitely POSSIBLE but I doubt it's as cheap. However, the air seems to need more fiddling...once you get the stirrer speed right you could probably just mark it on a dail and every time you need it, it could be "set it" and "forget it".
Anyways, I guess the propeller would also create some turbulence in a different manner than the air does...granted until I set up a propeller-driven stirrer I really can't speak on any of the merits/downsides as I don't yet have the experience
FWIW,
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Back to spawning videos - JENS posted this GREAT video (she must have some stronger moonlights than my 2 "Single Blue LEDs") or maybe they were rising under actinics...I wonder if my mandarins would spawn under actinics.....
CHECK OUT THE Thread for the link to the vid.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7385196
MP
CHECK OUT THE Thread for the link to the vid.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7385196
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
3:45 PM - a quick random sampling of 5 eggs in the kriesel produced 1 that was definitley, 100% viable and probably only a couple hours away from hatching. 2 more were "iffy" and 2 looked cloudy/gray..most likely not viable. 20% fertility? It's really too small a sampling to tell I'm sure......
MP
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Well well well - 7:10 PM - WE HAVE A HATCH! - the MINI KRIESEL DOES THE TRICK! There's at least a half dozen newly hatched larvae in there....I have to look back and see if I'm missing any images in the first 4-5 days and maybe I'll get to fill in with some development pics this time 'round. The next big task - MOVING hatched out larvae into a larger larval tank! I'm going to probably leave them in the mini-K overnight and may turn it down around the 24 hour mark to let unhatched eggs settled (and be taken out via a pipette).
Definitely an improvement, and I truly suspect my last couple hatch failures in the larger kriesel were due to either water quality, kriesel failure or fertility. But who the heck cares, you can hatch mandarins in a 1 quart plastic fish bowl filled with parental water and driven by nothing more than a cheap air pump with a valve, some flexible tubing and a bit of rigid tubing and tape to hold the whole thing together!
Granted, I fully acknowledge that MAYBE the propeller system works better...we'll see how much of a hatch we end up with!
BTW, the temp has dropped to 72.8...it was as high up as 76F during the day.
MP
Definitely an improvement, and I truly suspect my last couple hatch failures in the larger kriesel were due to either water quality, kriesel failure or fertility. But who the heck cares, you can hatch mandarins in a 1 quart plastic fish bowl filled with parental water and driven by nothing more than a cheap air pump with a valve, some flexible tubing and a bit of rigid tubing and tape to hold the whole thing together!
Granted, I fully acknowledge that MAYBE the propeller system works better...we'll see how much of a hatch we end up with!
BTW, the temp has dropped to 72.8...it was as high up as 76F during the day.
MP
rsman
New member
im not trying to break you bubble
but
My experience with my air-only-driven kriesel kinda puts that "theory" out the window. not really, its not really that hard to get most of the eggs to hatch. the 1 week barrier isnt really a big deal, its the 2-5 weeks that are the hard parts.
as for expense it really is cheap the 1-3 rpm fixed rate motors are available for between $5 and $20 depending on where you go,and the propellers are in the $5 range for 2 and of course any tax/shipping that might apply,
for motors see page 944 http://www.mcmaster.com/ **you will have to search for "944" to get there fastest *** this is not the cheapest place, your local surplus electronics place WILL be cheaper
for propellers see hobbypeople.net search for propellers pick one as big as you can fit in the bowl you decide to use.
the propeller version will not keep the eggs submerged like the cool pix/movies but it keeps them moving, and water around them going, a simple version is to just stick the propeller in the water and let it go.
they work very well for not only mandarins but any eggs that are not kept attached to rock, its the same hatcher I used for dottybacks, didnt attempt it with bangai's but did with pajama's and flame cardinals
but
My experience with my air-only-driven kriesel kinda puts that "theory" out the window. not really, its not really that hard to get most of the eggs to hatch. the 1 week barrier isnt really a big deal, its the 2-5 weeks that are the hard parts.
as for expense it really is cheap the 1-3 rpm fixed rate motors are available for between $5 and $20 depending on where you go,and the propellers are in the $5 range for 2 and of course any tax/shipping that might apply,
for motors see page 944 http://www.mcmaster.com/ **you will have to search for "944" to get there fastest *** this is not the cheapest place, your local surplus electronics place WILL be cheaper
for propellers see hobbypeople.net search for propellers pick one as big as you can fit in the bowl you decide to use.
the propeller version will not keep the eggs submerged like the cool pix/movies but it keeps them moving, and water around them going, a simple version is to just stick the propeller in the water and let it go.
they work very well for not only mandarins but any eggs that are not kept attached to rock, its the same hatcher I used for dottybacks, didnt attempt it with bangai's but did with pajama's and flame cardinals
mwp
In Memoriam
Ah yes RSMAN, hatching is the first step.....there's MANY more to go However, the propeller incubator IS only used for hatching according to Mai's article and to quote Mai, "All efforts to suspend the eggs with air bubbles have so far failed" which definitely implies that the "propeller" stirrer is the only way to go. I believe with a couple good hatches now we've shown that you CAN hatch them out with only an air feed. Considering right now that my biggest hurdle so far has been getting consistent hatches from the spawns, if my "desktop mini K" can produce the results a couple more times, I'll consider that first step pretty nailed down. Granted there are currently a LOT of unhatched eggs still floating around....
Once they're hatched, it's all about food!
MP
However, the propeller incubator IS only used for hatching according to Mai's article and to quote Mai, "All efforts to suspend the eggs with air bubbles have so far failed" which definitely implies that the "propeller" stirrer is the only way to go. I believe with a couple good hatches now we've shown that you CAN hatch them out with only an air feed. Considering right now that my biggest hurdle so far has been getting consistent hatches from the spawns, if my "desktop mini K" can produce the results a couple more times, I'll consider that first step pretty nailed down. Granted there are currently a LOT of unhatched eggs still floating around....Once they're hatched, it's all about food!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
9:10 PM - OK, interesting thing happened. I didn't touch anything, the air flow didn't appear to change, but for some reason all the eggs that were swirling around nicely are now on the BOTTOM of the mini K. I'd still say only 6 or so larvae actually hatched. HMMMMMMMMMMMM. I pulled out a bunch of eggs and looked at them under 10X...they basically looked like a sphere within a sphere...not so good 'cause I don't see the "line" that is the larval fish....I turned it up a bit and we'll see what else happens in the next few hours.
MP
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