Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

Alrighty! So I wasn't completely prepared or expecting the spawn...had the entire evening preparing for Renee's BIRTHDAY which is now officially TODAY! Something tells me that baby mandarins aren't going to be a sufficient present!

So...this was a BIG ONE - not going to bother counting but I'm going to say easily another 500+. They have gone into the propeller stirrer again, straight parental water (only got the containers opened up today to start making straight sterile saltwater), 2 drops methelyne blue, set it in the larval tank for temperature stability! So this lot is good to go in my book until early afternoon tomorrow - hopefully we'll see a hatch before Renee's festivities begin

So I have to set up the little 4 stragglers with some FOOD in the morning. Right now though, in the last 2 days I've taken out 2 gallons or so from the mandarin tank...fudged one and dropped the salinity by making up with freshwater, but this time around I think they need some salt! That's it for tonight!


Wait, a 1:00 AM edit, just had to come back and mention that we had tons of sticky clumpy eggs...lots of clumps, big clumps + at least 20-30 clumps of 3-8 eggs. If RSMAN's observations hold true to our pair, this should be a good one. The setup is getting closer and closer to being "ideal" in all the more experienced folk's suggestions....we'll see!

MP

 

[Krypticol]

i would love birthday mandarin babies....but hey it's not my birthday!!!!

 

[FishGuttz]

maybe they just needed practice!

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Awesome!

 

[mwp]

So just a quick update - the prior spawn, the four larvae, are now all gone. I should've started feeding yesterday I suspect...I found one dead body today in the mini kriesel and that was it.

Last Night's spawn - everything is stuck to the propeller! I'm not sure what I think about that at this point - there's a few eggs in the water column, a couple still floating on the surface, none on the bottom, and 95% plus are stuck to the propeller.

Anyways I guess regardless of temperature I need to start feeding on the morning of the 2nd day otherwise risk starvation...

Updates as they're warranted!

Matt

 

[FuEl]

Just a wild thought about the larvae. Since they don't have eyes when they hatch my guess is that they are most probably benthic at this moment. Try a large shallow tray without aeration and see how it goes? Could always have a small airline tubing blowing across the water surface to create some gentle current, then again watch out for evaporation rate.

 

[mwp]

FuEL, unfortunately the research dictates otherwise and my prior good hatch followed the research to a "T" (man, I really wish I could just post up the paper on larval development). Basically, they settle aroudn 12-14 days. Between days 4 and 11 there is a preflexion and flexion stage (granted, I have no clue how those terms relate to larval fish development).

Feeding/behavior wise, they should be totally pelagic for the first week, then slowly settling out and alternating between feeding on the bottom and in the water column. They should be hopping on the bottom by the start of the 3rd week.

Actually, I have to make some corrections; the batch that just kicked the bucket MAY have had eyes and mouths or may NOT have. The kicker is that at 36 hours under normal development the yolk is absorbed and eyes & mouth are present. Raising the last batch at room temp definitely slowed things down...this current spawn should follow the growth charted by Sadovy (my apologies to Sadovy for misspelling her name so many times in this thread!)

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

Well, 12:15 AM - 12 hours post spawn, eggs are starting to sink. Maybe 50-75 on the bottom now, another 25 or so in the water column, and the rest still up top.

FWIW,

MP

 

[FishGuttz]

Is it possible when you used the shrimp specimen cup to transfer your first batch that there was some small food in there like shrimp eggs or some algae that the fry initially fed on and then it ran out? I just read a post by another aquarist who was cleaning out a bucket and there were millions of unexpected rotifers in a slime on the bottom.

 

[mwp]

Shrimp specimen cup? You mean "Small" specimen cup? I actually keep my cups relatively clean, periodically washing with hot (and I mean HOT) freshwater in between uses. This especially holds true to daily use items like the turkey baster.

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

4:45 PM - NO HATCH so far on last night's spawn. Most all the free eggs are on the bottom - tons were still caught up on the propeller. I stirred things up but am now no longer optimistic that things will work out any better than any of our previous spawns.

WHAT GIVES?

MP

 

[OldmillXxX]

I'm placing my bet on the ones stuck to the prop. Constant motion and plenty of water flowing by!

It could happen...

 

[aomont]

Jus getting back to it FuEl, I don´t think eyes would be needed in order for them to be sensitive to light or phototropic (is it spelled correctly ?) as they are TOO small.

Some adult and large vertebrates manage to keep their circadian cycle even without functioning eyes. Thanks to pineal gland !

You guys have much more experience on that then me. Have you noticed different sensitivity/attraction to light before and after larvae have eyes ? It´s quite a distance from circadian cycle to attraction by light but I think it would be theoretically possible.

Promisse not to get too much away from the mandarin discussion !

Anderson.

 

[mwp]

10:45 PM - 22 hours post spawning, we have ONE, freakin ONE baby mandarin. 0.2% hatch rate. Not even worth the effort. This is the first time that "white snot" has shown up. Almost all the eggs that remain unhatched are milky white.

Alrighty guys, does anyone want to propose ideas / other options not yet tried? The propeller stirrer is currently rapidly getting to be on par with the various kriesel setups. In fact, at least with the mini kriesel I was averaging more like 4 per hatch...the big flow through kriesel still has a higher average if you throw in the freak "good" hatch of about 25.

So, I'm going to defer to RSMAN, the one guy on this thread who I KNOW has done it, and Ed, who knows someone ELSE who's done it - what kind of hatch rates / spawns were you getting. How are my experiences shaping up compared to yours?

I'm pretty ready to DITCH the theory that ANY of the incubation methods have been the cause of the problems. I think it's time to reexamine diet, tank conditions, harvesting of eggs, something else...things that influence fertilization rates. It COULD also be that these are just YOUNG mandarins still...definitely could be something to consider. I haven't given up hope but again I'm back to being TOTALLY FRUSTRATED and wanting to say "f it".

I'd LOVE to have access to the microscope, and if Aquatic Eco will accept a return and refund the purchase price on the hatchery jar, then I"ll put that money into the microscope. Now I have to figure out how to repackage the whole thing and send it back...after 2 weeks and a few more emails I finally got a response from them. Phew...they look like they're on the road to redemption, maybe.

One more observation - the lights went out at 10:10 pm tonight, and the male is now chasing the female around the tank in the ambient room light. It doesn't look like she's very receptive to his advances this evening...we'll see, we'll see...

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

Every once in a while I have something new to post image wise. Well, the SS Rotifer Cultures that I originally had thought I crashed have come back with a vengence!!!! Pictured below are the two strains, side by side, shot in macro mode. In the long run a microscope picture will be much more useful, but for now, this will give you at least an idea of the size difference between the SS-Strain and the L-Strain when cultured at 70-73F. SS are on top, L Strain on the bottom. The Red Line is roughly 1".

Here's to hoping I actually get to put those SS and L Strain rotifers to good use for a change down the line!

MP

 

[mwp]

I tried something different in my "googling" and found an old article from Wolfgang Mai on his successes with S. splendidus. I'm hoping the translated link will work:

Translated - http://translate.google.com/transla...=/search?q=Wolfgang+Mai+Synchiropus&hl=en&lr=

Original French - http://www.aquarium32.com/FR/Articles/Eaudemer/Gazette/Gazette69/Synchiropus.htm

Not much to go on there, but he was getting hatch rates around 100 with a stirrer and ending up with 15-20 larvae settling out....go figure!

MP

 

[wla200]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7337451#post7337451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
12:38, the male's crazy ZOOMING around the water column has subsided. It sure looks to me like this male was rising up to see if there were any willing females in the "area"...not sure how this compares to actual courtship in the wild. The female has already assumed her nocturnal coloration, so no spawn tonight. It has to happen soon though

MP

IT compares pretty well to spawning in the wild. I've dived with spawning mandarins on a number of occasions, including 5 days on the same reef. Spawning happens at dusk and seems to involve small groups (more than one male going for a female, 2 pairs together). I got the impression males actively "hunt" for females as they all rise out onto the reef at the same time. I also think males rock up every night and will go with any females who show up!

I can look out a few photos if people are interested and post more details if people have specific questions.

Good luck this is a great thread.

 

[FishGuttz]

wia,
probably impossibe, but were you able to see any eggs and or were you able to see or see/test the water for what the fry might be eating, like blooms of rotifers, etc.

 

[mwp]

Interesting observations wla200; how far below the water's surface do the mandarins usually spawn?

Matt

 

[mwp]

Just another random update with some more background pictures. Below is the phytoplankton cultures and the rotifer cultures - this is set up on a rack used to grow orchids (which means there's 4 48" 40 watt tubes above each tier). The upper tier houses the phytoplankton, the lower tier houses the rotifers, copepods and when necessary, artemnia.

From left to right in groups of 3; T-Isocrysis, Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Nannochloropsis

The zooplankton cultures aren't quite as "organized". From the left:

1st cut down Milk Jug - Adult Artemnia (only necessary for training picky eaters onto frozen food)
1st cut down 2 liter - a random Bryopsis culture.
2 2 liters with caps - these are the current SS Rotifer cultures. I'm keeping a "lid" on them to help prevent any cross contamination with L-Strain rotifers.
2nd and 3rd Milk Jugs - Tiggerpod cultures (these have some L Strain rotifers in them too...cross contamination happened early on)
Last 3 Milk Jugs - these are the L-Strain Rotifers. They have some small copepods growing in them as well, although lately the copepod population numbers are down.

I guess what I'm saying with this post is directed to the fish gods - I'm PREPARED, give me a good mandarin hatch already!!!

MP