Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

Thanks for the encouraging words Luis! I'm thinking that in order to attack this problem I still ultimately need good hatch rates, then the ideal first food (hoped SS rots would do it, but I'm pretty sure even they are too big). Then maintaining water quality and keeping them on the food progression will be key. On the hatch rate front, when I have the time I'm going to try a very scientific approach, testing any and all variations, but before I get there I'm going to try to widen the adults food range to include some prepared foods.

My experience tells me that if they'll take live BS from the water column, the weaning to frozen BS would be a cinch, and from there the mysis come in...that's how all my Synchiropus progressed (except the 1 female stellatus that is now dead anyways).

Good luck with your efforts too!

Matt

 

[mwp]

A little update on the broodstock front...for a little while there was a mandarin train going 'round and 'round the tank...Female #2, followed by #1, followed by our male. The male has lost interest, but female #1 still seems very curious about #2. I haven't seen any fighting (yet), it looks more like curiousity

Matt

 

[Luis A M]

I´m pretty sure mandarin larvae do take rots,being the only ornamental pelagic spawners doing that so far,am I wrong on that?

Frozen bs are not available here
I could freeze some,but I guess some uneaten ones die anyway and could serve the purpose.The ultimate goal should be to have them taking pellets as part of their diet.It was reported here that they can be weaned to formula 2.

 

[mwp]

Luis, have you seen Malev's Mandarin Diner? All he feds are pellets. I tried some frozen formula 1 today with the Red Scooter Blenny male...he absolutely attacked it. Haven't seen the same kind of response in the Mandarins but it's on my "to do" list!

Matt

 

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7864040#post7864040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
Kenny, I have not tried this yet. The problem is that the broodstock is in a reef with corals etc...lowering the broodstock to 1.018 or so isn't an option. I may be able to bring them down a touch, to something like 1.022/1.023, but 1.018 will likely start the loss of inverts, macro algaes etc...

Now, the EGGS may be able to go down to 1.018 if harvested quickly but more than likely that would just cause them to burst. I'd like to rule out most everything else before going with a lower SG.

Matt

Matt, I think he meant in the larval rearing tank only and if the reduction in SG was done slowly I think the eggs could handle it.

But I'll let him respond as I'm a newbie in this area

Brian

 

[Luis A M]

This goes like chatting
Yes,that´s what I read.Using some jars as a feeding station for mandarins in a comunity tank:eek1:
I think scooters are easy feeders.
BTW I saw in a lfs one of these large dragonets with a long forward pointing dorsal fin and "fingers",awesome!

 

[mwp]

Yeah, those "Fingered Dragonettes" are wicked cool but they get up to 6"...too large for my tanks!

S. circularis, that's 3rd on the list after Mandarins and RSBs.

If you've only "read" about Mavel's Mandarin Diner you have to find the videos...they really hit home the "training" and the use of the jars....between that and my learning about Seahorses is what helped me figure out to use the Cup Coral as a feeding station.

Brian, I think dropping the salinity over time, i.e. maybe a few hours, would still be too tramatic on the eggs. What I DON'T know is how the eggs are "kept" prior to being expelled..i.e. what biological mechanism prepares eggs for release into saltwater? IF the eggs are able to regulate their own salinity, well then perhaps dropping the salinity would be OK. OR, for that matter, if the egg's wall protects the developing embryo from osmitic pressures, then dropping the salinity would be OK to. However, I suspect that whatever the salinity is outside the egg, that's what it's going to be inside too. So far, it seems that 'stability' in the external environment helps eggs develope successfully, so dropping salinity could be a death blow. Doesn't mean I probably won't try it someday

BTW, female #2 has now taken at least a little bit of a beating from female #1...so far no worse than what I've seen the male do to our first female.

Matt

 

[apistomaster]

Maintaining steady state salinity is the only way to go unless someone could show that mandarins spawn mostly near estuaries which I sincerely doubt they do. an egg that hatches out to a near microscopic larvae has enough going on in it's physiology without having to contend with balancing differential osmotic pressures the species is not evolved to do. Many of your respondents, especially because most reefers originally have experience with fresh water fish breeding. Some you should try to breed the commonly available T.R. neon tetras to gain a better appreciate the challange of raising mandarins. Mandarins are exponentially more difficult. If you get 10 neon tetras to hatch out of 200 eggs you are lucky. At 10 days later you will have no neon babies. You may try it 10 times before you perfect your technique to the point you still have 10 survivors at 10 days. It is hard to convey the difficulties of sucessfully raising a mandarin larvae and Matt has put far more effort into this challeng than any hobbyist I've ever heard of.
Larry

 

[mwp]

Well, Female #2 is now getting her butt full-on kicked by #1...shredded 1 pelvic fin, a chunk out of the dorsal fin, and overall #1 just seems to be seeking out #2 purposely to give chase. LOOKS LIKE THIS AIN'T GONNA WORK

Keeping an eye on the catfight.

Matt

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
I never found out but I'm assuming this mandarin aquarium is only a 24 gallon tank. Introducing a rival female into the other's space is sure to cause trouble. There are stll some options to try.
1. swap out females for awhile. The male should'nt care which one is with him and it will give #2 female spawning chances, although adjustments may take a week.
2. Confine #1 female in the tank awhile before recombining trio.
3. Remove all 3 mandarins while you rearrange the "furniture" and the put them all back in at the same time and let them sort things out.
4. Is'nt exactly an option but may be that there really isn't enough room in a 24gal for 3 Mandarins.
I have only tried trio in 125 gallon.
5. Some day try a trio in a larger tank some day.
I would be tempted to temporarily swapping females, alternating each month so both females can spawn and perhaps producing riper eggs than just what you get from a constantly spawning female. Lack of space is a problem.
Larry

 

[mwp]

Larry, all good thoughts and all information I'm well aware of except for #4; that is the ultimate question I was waiting to "ask" by introducing #2 to the main tank.

Seems like the aggression has subsided...other than some tattered fins #2 looks OK. The big question now is whether they'll continue to fight more or if this was a "putting her in her place" kind of thing. I have a net on standby...

Matt

 

[RobbyG]

What a fantastic thread, one of the best on RC.
Matt after reading all of this and seeing how dedicated you are to making this all work, might it not be worth while to actually take a trip to a country were these Mandarins are found in the wild, maybe make it a vacation/work trip? I know this could be expensive but if you carry the right water testing equipment you could probably find the missing pieces of the puzzle, mainly salinity, temp and available food sources.

 

[TitoTee]

What I don't understand is why the other guy who claims to have raised Mandarins successfully not tell Matt how to do it. Don't mean to start anything not at all - I just don't understand that's all.

 

[mwp]

TitoTee.

I could understand it...I've been in contact with people who've done it and read every bit of info I can get my hand on and the best thing I can tell you is that NO ONE really has a specific formula for success....that's the problem.

Clownfish - we know how to do it, we know what the problems are and we know what the solutions are. Bangaii's...cakewalk (except in the case of my pair!). Gobies? Well, Neons have been around for some time. Seahorses...there's a whole cult following and folks have been working with them for decades.

Perhaps Angelfish are on par with mandarins, except that they were first done 20 years prior to mandarins by Moe in the 70's...first success with mandarins was in the 90's....so on the "innovation snowball" we're pretty high up on the hill yet! Commercially available CB angelfish started coming around what, a year or two ago...so maybe by 2025 we'll see mandarins (unless I have any say in the matter!).

Of course, there's another possible scenario which I would completely understand...there is something to be said for NOT having every last bit of info, but having to think it out for yourself. Of course, some people assuredly feel that the information is definitely proprietary as well (although with Mandarins I don't think this is the case...there is just enough documentation out there to make me dangerous)

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7867364#post7867364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobbyG
What a fantastic thread, one of the best on RC.
Matt after reading all of this and seeing how dedicated you are to making this all work, might it not be worth while to actually take a trip to a country were these Mandarins are found in the wild, maybe make it a vacation/work trip? I know this could be expensive but if you carry the right water testing equipment you could probably find the missing pieces of the puzzle, mainly salinity, temp and available food sources.

First, it's not even close to in the budget to consider. But, 2nd, on the upside of that, Sadovy basically did just that more or less. If I could only get in touch with her to ask her more details about their rearing practices (they took them out to 30 days)...

Also, a quick FYI, I have not located any mandarins in the larval tank...the GBG's are definitely "overunning the tank and I've been keeping tabs on my additions of phytoplankton additions, water additions etc in that thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=844416

Matt

 

[wla200]

Matt
I'm tentatively planning a return to Malapascua island in october. I won't be able to take water testing stuff or anything but if there's anything in particular you want to know that I can work out just by looking at breeding wild mandarins let me know.

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
If the agression between the females has diminished then I think the worst is behind you and the trio should be ok from here out.
Larry

 

[mwp]

HMM, thanks for the offer! I don't really know what can be gained just by observation by the naked eye at this point...we have a ton of info on spawning observations (i.e. Sadovy's article) already. If anyone thinks of something, by all means post it!

So an update - this morning, the 2nd the lights came on, female #1 again started chasing female #2, so I managed to scoop #2 out and place her in the cardinalfish tank to recouperate. Of course, the question now is whether the male Red Scooter Blenny will have any issues with sharing his tank with a female mandarin...

Matt

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
I still don't know size the mandarin spawning tank is. Please, do tell.
Larry

 

[mwp]

Sorry, you were correct, they are in a 24 gallon nanocube. By most folk's standards a small tank for 1 mandarin, let alone a spawning pair, let alone trying a trio

Matt