Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
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mwp
In Memoriam
Danfirth...go like 25-28 pages back 
Yup, I'm very familiar with Mai's article. There's also a link somewhere in this thread to his earlier article on S. splendidus.
A lot of Mai's observations for S. picturatus (from the Corals mag. article) don't match up with common sense (i.e. some measurements are way off, but I think that's a translation issue). I've picked the brains of several folks who've raised Synchiropus species and am slowly working my way through different methods, although at this time I don't really have the best scientific approach (and I need to get it going that way). Basically, I'm trying to improve hatch rates in every way I can, from cleaner incubation water to better parental nutrition. Watching several larvae develop and then NOT HATCH and ultimately die definitely raises questions that most likely will be answered by parental nutrition, prophalatic medications or incubation method. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever have a way to follow every egg in a spawning in the ocean and see how many hatch; the only thing I have to go on is that some folks have reported hatches around the size of this one whereas at least one # I've heard approaches 100% hatch rates.
FWIW,
Matt
Yup, I'm very familiar with Mai's article. There's also a link somewhere in this thread to his earlier article on S. splendidus.A lot of Mai's observations for S. picturatus (from the Corals mag. article) don't match up with common sense (i.e. some measurements are way off, but I think that's a translation issue). I've picked the brains of several folks who've raised Synchiropus species and am slowly working my way through different methods, although at this time I don't really have the best scientific approach (and I need to get it going that way). Basically, I'm trying to improve hatch rates in every way I can, from cleaner incubation water to better parental nutrition. Watching several larvae develop and then NOT HATCH and ultimately die definitely raises questions that most likely will be answered by parental nutrition, prophalatic medications or incubation method. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever have a way to follow every egg in a spawning in the ocean and see how many hatch; the only thing I have to go on is that some folks have reported hatches around the size of this one whereas at least one # I've heard approaches 100% hatch rates.
FWIW,
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Kathy, right you are. Good basic info, and lots of stunning photography in Coral Mag. Got me thinking about trying Flame Hawks (and boy did I have to resist the urge today to pick up two that would've made the ultimate pair)!
Tito, I think any benefit that would come from "real ocean water" would be in the microscopic life that's contained within, not the actual water itself. To that end, the one or two vendors offering wild caught plankton do pique my curiosity, but in the end it SEEMS that other folks (Mai) have done it without access to anything other than standard, existing cultures, feeds etc (OK, there are those "red worms" that he brings up...I actually think I had some going in the larval tank at one point and foolishly didn't try to culture them when I had the shot). In any case, having one larvae make it to something like 10 days means that there was SOMETHING in there to eat. Looking at the general overall theme, it seems that nutrition may be the big issue in all my problems, as I kinda feel I've eliminated so many other things...having one of the largest hatches in a stagnant 2-3 ML sample of water under a microscope speaks VOLUMES with regards to "incubation methods" and water quality.
Right now I'm focusing on trying to get the brood pair to accept Formula 1 pellets by adding them to the enriched frozen diet at every feeding. So far they are getting snubbed. But hey, mysis initially get snubbed and took weeks to get the male onto, so pellets may be no different. I'm not entirely convinced that adding a pellet such as Formula 1 may be the ultimate answer, but a broader, wider, more varied diet that frozen enriched brine and mysis (and what they find in the reef) certainly can't hurt. And, if we suddenly see massive hatches, we'll have found the underlying issue (you may recall at least one experienced breeder doesn't see anything particularly "good" about their current diet).
The other big thing, the mandarins have not showed interest in spawning over the last 2 nights despite the female being heavily burdened with eggs, yet just a few days prior they had back-back spawns, right in synch with the full moon. I still don't think I have enough data to confirm the suspicion that moonphase does play a factor in spawning..and observations in nature that they'll spawn every night further shoots that theory to pieces, but on the flipside, it certainly SEEMS like there's a trend.
Considering that my pair does not spawn EVERY night vs. what they supposedly do in nature, it might suggest that my pair is not in as "perfect" breeding condition as a fish in nature, which bolsters the diet argument. Stripping away that "perfect" condition, it seems all the more likely that the fish's biological systems DO favor full moons, and too a lesser extent new moons. In other words, it's not a major player in determining spawning times, but it does carry influence...all just working thoughts.
Meanwhile, I'm still on the search for a good RSB female or 2. Wouldn't it be hysterical if they turn out to be "easy" to raise compared to the mandarins? I gotta give them a try...heck, they fetch more $$$ than mandarins do!
Matt
Tito, I think any benefit that would come from "real ocean water" would be in the microscopic life that's contained within, not the actual water itself. To that end, the one or two vendors offering wild caught plankton do pique my curiosity, but in the end it SEEMS that other folks (Mai) have done it without access to anything other than standard, existing cultures, feeds etc (OK, there are those "red worms" that he brings up...I actually think I had some going in the larval tank at one point and foolishly didn't try to culture them when I had the shot). In any case, having one larvae make it to something like 10 days means that there was SOMETHING in there to eat. Looking at the general overall theme, it seems that nutrition may be the big issue in all my problems, as I kinda feel I've eliminated so many other things...having one of the largest hatches in a stagnant 2-3 ML sample of water under a microscope speaks VOLUMES with regards to "incubation methods" and water quality.
Right now I'm focusing on trying to get the brood pair to accept Formula 1 pellets by adding them to the enriched frozen diet at every feeding. So far they are getting snubbed. But hey, mysis initially get snubbed and took weeks to get the male onto, so pellets may be no different. I'm not entirely convinced that adding a pellet such as Formula 1 may be the ultimate answer, but a broader, wider, more varied diet that frozen enriched brine and mysis (and what they find in the reef) certainly can't hurt. And, if we suddenly see massive hatches, we'll have found the underlying issue (you may recall at least one experienced breeder doesn't see anything particularly "good" about their current diet).
The other big thing, the mandarins have not showed interest in spawning over the last 2 nights despite the female being heavily burdened with eggs, yet just a few days prior they had back-back spawns, right in synch with the full moon. I still don't think I have enough data to confirm the suspicion that moonphase does play a factor in spawning..and observations in nature that they'll spawn every night further shoots that theory to pieces, but on the flipside, it certainly SEEMS like there's a trend.
Considering that my pair does not spawn EVERY night vs. what they supposedly do in nature, it might suggest that my pair is not in as "perfect" breeding condition as a fish in nature, which bolsters the diet argument. Stripping away that "perfect" condition, it seems all the more likely that the fish's biological systems DO favor full moons, and too a lesser extent new moons. In other words, it's not a major player in determining spawning times, but it does carry influence...all just working thoughts.
Meanwhile, I'm still on the search for a good RSB female or 2. Wouldn't it be hysterical if they turn out to be "easy" to raise compared to the mandarins? I gotta give them a try...heck, they fetch more $$$ than mandarins do!
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
SO it's like this...8-14-06, we have a SPAWN! - It occured somewhere between 12:25 AM and 12:44 AM (checked the clock when I checked the tank for eggs or spawning activity). Knowing what I have on my plate with work tomorrow, I won't be able to monitor a Microscope, and I'd hate to just toss the eggs, so considering the relatively "dwindling" population of otherwise healthy GBG's in the larval tank, PLUS all the potential foodforms available to any larvae at this point, the Mandarin eggs were simply collected and dumped in the 10 gallon with the GBG's. Wish 'em LUCK!
Matt
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Luis, it's pretty easy if you have good eyes. Before spawning, all the lights are off (except for moonlights) and the pumps are turned off.
Knowing when the eggs have been released took some practice. Sitting and watching the mandarins, you might think that that first splash at the surface is a spawn...turn on the lights, freak them out, and find nothing. Of course, the biggest giveaway that the spawn HASN'T happened yet is if the pair is still active in the tank, either chasing each other around, displaying or actually rising.
Mine make many "false spawns" before actually releasing the eggs. Basically, all the lights in the room are turned out, the only lights going are the 2 blue LED moonlights. When I see something floating at the surface that looks like eggs and there is no visible fish activity, I first look in the vicinity of the blue moonlights (best possible viewing area) and try to assertain if there are indeed eggs. If I can't positively say yes or now, I'll shine a flashlight in towards the surface from the side of the tank and see if I can see eggs. If I find eggs...things move foward. If I can't find anything and the fish are sleeping, I'll turn on the lights anways just to make sure, and only once I'm certain there hasn't been a spawn (and there isn't going to be) do I turn off the lights again and turn the pumps back on.
Immediately after spawning (when there's a spawn) I turn on the main tank lights....the mandarins dive into the rockwork following their spawn anyway...it's just an early, temporary dawn. Most of the eggs are already floating at the surface immediately after being released...some take a few minutes to make their way back up to the top through the water column.
With the 24 gallon nano cube, it's easy to prop the lid open while the lights are on and get my face right up close to the tank's surface. The eggs are pretty clear but they do stand out. Easier still is looking at them through the sides of the tank...i.e. look at the pics in the first page of this thread...that's pretty much what they look like.
I've tried several methods for collecting, and I'm happiest with using a large disposable pipette that has it's tip cut off (so the pipette opening is probably at least 1/4" in diameter). If I apply pressure to the bulb, and then slowly let up on it, we have a mini vacume. Single eggs are easily sucked right off the surface with just a bit of water..allowing some air to enter following that, and then going to the next egg, when you touch the tip of the pipette to the water again, that air bubble travels upwards and pulls in the next egg.
Clumped eggs are even easier to collect - the more clumps you have, the less single eggs to chase and the faster the harvest goes. Big clumps do sometimes break up with this treatment, but the eggs appear intact and no worse for the wear when examined under the microscope.
After every vacume session, the eggs are then gently squirted into a small container and I go back hunting for more. The whole process maybe takes 10 minutes on average and will collect each and every eggs you can visually find if you're simply patient enough. Other methods of egg collection use a lot more broodstock water (i.e. setting an empty container at an angle, open end upwards, into the tank water, causing water and eggs to be skimmed off and into the cup). I'm very happy with the pipette method. It's also probably one of the gentlest methods for egg collection that I've been able to come up with.
Of course, don't forget to turn the pumps back on and daytime lights out after all of this is done! I have my pumps on a switch, makes it really easy.
Matt
FWIW,
Matt
Knowing when the eggs have been released took some practice. Sitting and watching the mandarins, you might think that that first splash at the surface is a spawn...turn on the lights, freak them out, and find nothing. Of course, the biggest giveaway that the spawn HASN'T happened yet is if the pair is still active in the tank, either chasing each other around, displaying or actually rising.
Mine make many "false spawns" before actually releasing the eggs. Basically, all the lights in the room are turned out, the only lights going are the 2 blue LED moonlights. When I see something floating at the surface that looks like eggs and there is no visible fish activity, I first look in the vicinity of the blue moonlights (best possible viewing area) and try to assertain if there are indeed eggs. If I can't positively say yes or now, I'll shine a flashlight in towards the surface from the side of the tank and see if I can see eggs. If I find eggs...things move foward. If I can't find anything and the fish are sleeping, I'll turn on the lights anways just to make sure, and only once I'm certain there hasn't been a spawn (and there isn't going to be) do I turn off the lights again and turn the pumps back on.
Immediately after spawning (when there's a spawn) I turn on the main tank lights....the mandarins dive into the rockwork following their spawn anyway...it's just an early, temporary dawn. Most of the eggs are already floating at the surface immediately after being released...some take a few minutes to make their way back up to the top through the water column.
With the 24 gallon nano cube, it's easy to prop the lid open while the lights are on and get my face right up close to the tank's surface. The eggs are pretty clear but they do stand out. Easier still is looking at them through the sides of the tank...i.e. look at the pics in the first page of this thread...that's pretty much what they look like.
I've tried several methods for collecting, and I'm happiest with using a large disposable pipette that has it's tip cut off (so the pipette opening is probably at least 1/4" in diameter). If I apply pressure to the bulb, and then slowly let up on it, we have a mini vacume. Single eggs are easily sucked right off the surface with just a bit of water..allowing some air to enter following that, and then going to the next egg, when you touch the tip of the pipette to the water again, that air bubble travels upwards and pulls in the next egg.
Clumped eggs are even easier to collect - the more clumps you have, the less single eggs to chase and the faster the harvest goes. Big clumps do sometimes break up with this treatment, but the eggs appear intact and no worse for the wear when examined under the microscope.
After every vacume session, the eggs are then gently squirted into a small container and I go back hunting for more. The whole process maybe takes 10 minutes on average and will collect each and every eggs you can visually find if you're simply patient enough. Other methods of egg collection use a lot more broodstock water (i.e. setting an empty container at an angle, open end upwards, into the tank water, causing water and eggs to be skimmed off and into the cup). I'm very happy with the pipette method. It's also probably one of the gentlest methods for egg collection that I've been able to come up with.
Of course, don't forget to turn the pumps back on and daytime lights out after all of this is done! I have my pumps on a switch, makes it really easy.
Matt
FWIW,
Matt
Luis A M
Premium Member
Thanks Matt,got the idea.
A large pipette with a cut-off end and a bulb,isn´t something similar to a baster?
Don´t eggs stick to the pipette walls?.It sounds a hell of a work!Wouldn´t it be easier to scoop/net/siphon them?.
So the eggs can be seen with a flashlight...
Flashed by your thread,but regretting having killed some large nice ones in the past due to feeding problems,I got a couple of young,mid-size (4cm TL) fish,hoping they would be easier to train feeding,and may be grow them out and have them spawning next year.
Sure enough,both fish,kept in a 10g with a LR and some Caulerpa,soon learned to eat adult live bs.Not frozen mysis so far,much less Formula pellets.
Anyway I was checking the physical condition when I found that the female´s belly was distended.Shortly after I saw both joining at the surface,without much of a spawning rise,and press the bodies together at 45º.
As she shows an empty belly in the morning,I assume she somehow gets rid of her load,no matter their young age.
Not meaning to hijack but didn´t feel like starting a new thread without seeing actual eggs
A large pipette with a cut-off end and a bulb,isn´t something similar to a baster?
Don´t eggs stick to the pipette walls?.It sounds a hell of a work!Wouldn´t it be easier to scoop/net/siphon them?.
So the eggs can be seen with a flashlight...
Flashed by your thread,but regretting having killed some large nice ones in the past due to feeding problems,I got a couple of young,mid-size (4cm TL) fish,hoping they would be easier to train feeding,and may be grow them out and have them spawning next year.
Sure enough,both fish,kept in a 10g with a LR and some Caulerpa,soon learned to eat adult live bs.Not frozen mysis so far,much less Formula pellets.
Anyway I was checking the physical condition when I found that the female´s belly was distended.Shortly after I saw both joining at the surface,without much of a spawning rise,and press the bodies together at 45º.
As she shows an empty belly in the morning,I assume she somehow gets rid of her load,no matter their young age.
Not meaning to hijack but didn´t feel like starting a new thread without seeing actual eggs
mwp
In Memoriam
Luis, WOW, those are YOUNG fish but then again, as earlier in the thread, I think most of Sadovy's wild fish observed were only 2" in length or smaller! Congrats on the spawn, and sorry you missed the eggs.
To call the "pipette" a "baster" really would diminish the huge difference in scale - the pipette's larger opening simply helps the eggs to "hop on in", but otherwise this is a precision instrument, collecting eggs much in the way a mandarin pics at the substrate. The pipette affords fine control on the amount of suction you're using (just two fingers to squeeze the bulb end)...I wouldn't even try to use my phytoplankton turkeybaster...it's not airtight so water always moves in if submerged, it's "huge" compared to the pipette...basically just unwieldy.
In the pipette, trust me, eggs don't stick to the inside...they all come out. When I'm done harvesting I usually take one more 2-3ML sample of tank water to simply flush out any that may still be in there.
Sure, you can scoop them out with a cup or jar or whatever, but in the case of my tank, I have some nuisance algae (brown slime), lots of undesireable micro life (i.e mini swimming bristleworms) and stuff...taking out a lot of water increases the chances of collecting these things as well...so I've definitely found a preference for the finess approach vs. simply scooping them out.
I was intrigued by a new method of surface collection I came across in the most current Coral Magazine - it's called a Bun-Sucker (see page 31). In the end, not that far off from the pipette method...and well, a pipette is simply easier to operate.
I'd still love to come up with some sort of automatic collection, but the big concern here would be turbulence. I.e., there's almost no reason that the built in surface skimmer wouldn't collect every last egg, but in an overnight process any eggs trapped would most likely be pushed against any screening, or tumbled about roughly, not to mention all the other stuff that would be collected with the eggs.
A siphon, well, if using a large diameter siphon like we use to change water, again, it could be very effective and QUICK, but my big concern is again possible egg damage and the collection of other organisms / debris. Scooping the eggs is pretty much ever bit as effective and is more gentle.
So, with all that said, I really think the pipette works the best.
------
At least 2 mandarins hatched today. The GBG's are something like 13.5 days old in there, L Strain, SS Strain, copepods, and all four algaes I culture are present in the larval tank. I'd say these couple mandarin lavae have as good a chance as any to make it.
Matt
To call the "pipette" a "baster" really would diminish the huge difference in scale - the pipette's larger opening simply helps the eggs to "hop on in", but otherwise this is a precision instrument, collecting eggs much in the way a mandarin pics at the substrate. The pipette affords fine control on the amount of suction you're using (just two fingers to squeeze the bulb end)...I wouldn't even try to use my phytoplankton turkeybaster...it's not airtight so water always moves in if submerged, it's "huge" compared to the pipette...basically just unwieldy.
In the pipette, trust me, eggs don't stick to the inside...they all come out. When I'm done harvesting I usually take one more 2-3ML sample of tank water to simply flush out any that may still be in there.
Sure, you can scoop them out with a cup or jar or whatever, but in the case of my tank, I have some nuisance algae (brown slime), lots of undesireable micro life (i.e mini swimming bristleworms) and stuff...taking out a lot of water increases the chances of collecting these things as well...so I've definitely found a preference for the finess approach vs. simply scooping them out.
I was intrigued by a new method of surface collection I came across in the most current Coral Magazine - it's called a Bun-Sucker (see page 31). In the end, not that far off from the pipette method...and well, a pipette is simply easier to operate.
I'd still love to come up with some sort of automatic collection, but the big concern here would be turbulence. I.e., there's almost no reason that the built in surface skimmer wouldn't collect every last egg, but in an overnight process any eggs trapped would most likely be pushed against any screening, or tumbled about roughly, not to mention all the other stuff that would be collected with the eggs.
A siphon, well, if using a large diameter siphon like we use to change water, again, it could be very effective and QUICK, but my big concern is again possible egg damage and the collection of other organisms / debris. Scooping the eggs is pretty much ever bit as effective and is more gentle.
So, with all that said, I really think the pipette works the best.
------
At least 2 mandarins hatched today. The GBG's are something like 13.5 days old in there, L Strain, SS Strain, copepods, and all four algaes I culture are present in the larval tank. I'd say these couple mandarin lavae have as good a chance as any to make it.
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
A quick update on the 2 mandarins - they're still around! This time, things are a bit different on the "rearing front" as these were hatched in a tank absolutely full of life - all four types of phytoplankton are added twice per day, + L and SS Strain Rotifers, some copepods and all sorts of other stuff no doubt. They've had a plethora of food available from the moment they were able to eat.
I've been doing some maintenance on this tank and am keeping track of that in the Greenbanded Goby Breeding Log...no need to repost the same minutia here - bottom line, tonight I took out 6 gallons and will be adding in 3 freshly mixed gallons....yesterday there was .5 ppm ammonia in the tank water.
Matt
I've been doing some maintenance on this tank and am keeping track of that in the Greenbanded Goby Breeding Log...no need to repost the same minutia here - bottom line, tonight I took out 6 gallons and will be adding in 3 freshly mixed gallons....yesterday there was .5 ppm ammonia in the tank water.
Matt
BrianPlankis
Premium Member
Matt,
Hey man, i was just listening to the latest RC/TalkingReef podcast (with Chris Jury and Rob Weatherly) and they talk almost 2 minutes about fish nutrition and how it affects the hatching success of the eggs. You might want to listen to it, it starts around the 17 minute mark and goes almost to the 20 minute mark.
You might want to consider the adult nutrition and what you fed them for when you had higher hatch rates and when you had lower hatch rates. I have no idea who Chris Jury is (I know he is a famous reef guy, but I don't know how much he has done with breeding of fish), but I do know Rob and that he has bred clownfish for some time. So I think he at least knows something about egg hatch rates.
Brian
Hey man, i was just listening to the latest RC/TalkingReef podcast (with Chris Jury and Rob Weatherly) and they talk almost 2 minutes about fish nutrition and how it affects the hatching success of the eggs. You might want to listen to it, it starts around the 17 minute mark and goes almost to the 20 minute mark.
You might want to consider the adult nutrition and what you fed them for when you had higher hatch rates and when you had lower hatch rates. I have no idea who Chris Jury is (I know he is a famous reef guy, but I don't know how much he has done with breeding of fish), but I do know Rob and that he has bred clownfish for some time. So I think he at least knows something about egg hatch rates.
Brian
mwp
In Memoriam
Brian, you may have caught on earlier that I'm attempting to widen the parental diet currently...Formula 1 pellets are going in but are not being eaten. I'm already feeding a WIDE diet and supplementing everything usually with Virbrance 2 or Selcon, very rarely reef plus. A few folks have commented on the adult diet and "don't see anything special", which I take to suggest that they feel it's a likely culprit. However, other than trying to get them to accept prepared/manufactured foods, I don't have any other directions to really expand the diet. Here's a quick review:
Hikari - Enriched Brine, Mysis
San Francisco Bay - Spirulina Enriched Brine, Omega 3 Brine, Mysis
Piscene Energetics - Mysis
Reed Mariculture - Arctipods
Cyclopeze
-edit-
I forgot to add:
Lifeline - Mysis
HIkari - Ocean Plankton (a lot of the fish won't take these though)
Most of the other foods I can think of that are available are freshwater in nature (the PE mysis is actually freshwater as well) so nutritionally I don't know if there's merit to trying items like blackworms, mosquito larvae, daphnia etc. Keep in mind I also do culture tiggerpods and they do get added into the reef along with all the other copepods that already occur in there, so their natural diet is available to them as live feed, only in this setup they probably don't feed on them very heavily.
As always I welcome thoughts!
Matt
Hikari - Enriched Brine, Mysis
San Francisco Bay - Spirulina Enriched Brine, Omega 3 Brine, Mysis
Piscene Energetics - Mysis
Reed Mariculture - Arctipods
Cyclopeze
-edit-
I forgot to add:
Lifeline - Mysis
HIkari - Ocean Plankton (a lot of the fish won't take these though)
Most of the other foods I can think of that are available are freshwater in nature (the PE mysis is actually freshwater as well) so nutritionally I don't know if there's merit to trying items like blackworms, mosquito larvae, daphnia etc. Keep in mind I also do culture tiggerpods and they do get added into the reef along with all the other copepods that already occur in there, so their natural diet is available to them as live feed, only in this setup they probably don't feed on them very heavily.
As always I welcome thoughts!
Matt
Last edited:
apistomaster
New member
Hi Matt,
I had my computer lobotomized and have been out of touch during this issue of "right to life" came up. I hope that is over with. The whole pyramid of life on the reef is based on predation and that fact of life can't be sidestepped.
Finding the right food for the Mandarin is a daunting task for captive breeding and one I don't think everyone appreciates the difficulties involved and they would be hard pressed to walk in your wading shoes which it appears you have to keep on to wade through the uh, muck. Just keep at it (as if you could be disuaded) you are a pioneer and like the Wright brothers there will always be someone who says it can't be done but we know it can and that it won't be easy. Who hasn't bred fish without loss?
I had my computer lobotomized and have been out of touch during this issue of "right to life" came up. I hope that is over with. The whole pyramid of life on the reef is based on predation and that fact of life can't be sidestepped.
Finding the right food for the Mandarin is a daunting task for captive breeding and one I don't think everyone appreciates the difficulties involved and they would be hard pressed to walk in your wading shoes which it appears you have to keep on to wade through the uh, muck. Just keep at it (as if you could be disuaded) you are a pioneer and like the Wright brothers there will always be someone who says it can't be done but we know it can and that it won't be easy. Who hasn't bred fish without loss?
mwp
In Memoriam
Apistomaster, did you acidentally start at the beginning of the thread? The right-to-life topic came up like way back in April and was quickly kyboshed by Frank et. al.
FWIW, there's still at least 1 mandarin baby running around in the larval tank...they're pretty hard to find considering all the other life that's in there.
Matt
FWIW, there's still at least 1 mandarin baby running around in the larval tank...they're pretty hard to find considering all the other life that's in there.
Matt
apistomaster
New member
Hi Matt,
Evidently I did pick from the wrong place and reacted to it because of some similar flak I received elsewhere I was empathizing with what mistakenly thought was going on.
Larry
Evidently I did pick from the wrong place and reacted to it because of some similar flak I received elsewhere I was empathizing with what mistakenly thought was going on.
Larry
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