Green monti caps are now pale pink/beige color but growing quickly

[Homeytwist]

Nope, no carbon dosing for me. Actually the mother colonies of these frags were under LEDs (Maxspect I think?) and were a strong green, so I don't think it's your LEDs causing your issue. From what I read iron deficiency will manifest itself by green SPS losing their green color so I'm working to get my hands on a decent iron test kit to see where I'm at. Hopefully this thread will continue to generate ideas on the matter.

 

[tang daddy]

Hey there, it is possible that the coral released all the zooanthlea when it went into your tank. Considering that you have had it for 4 months and it hasn't coloured up, it's hard to say if it will ever colour up again.... I don't want to sound negative but usually corals colour up within a few months. I had my caps under hqi 250w before switching them up to LEDs recently. When I switched to LEDs I had bleaching from my rainbow monti (encrusting) and also a Forrest fire digi. Another suggestion is you are running 10k the other person you got the monti from had lots of atinic lights which enhanced the colours more, maybe try switching to a higher K like 14??

I am sure I know the person you got the monti from if he is from Richmond, is a good friend of mine and was part of the reason why I moved to led, after seeing the growth and colour of his corals under the LEDs I was a believer.

There are some nice colours that come out of 10k but I prefer 14-20k for lighting, the spectrum will make the colours pop more. If you've ever been diving on a reef you will agree that most corals look a brown tan colour with the exception of a few pink stylos and purple montis....

I am sure you could try another piece to see if it's any difference after the bulb change.

 

[Homeytwist]

Hey Tang Daddy, you're right I did get them from a fellow reefer in Richmond. As for the lighting they were originally under a 14k Phoenix bulb when they lost their color. It's not just that the colors don't pop under my 10k bulb, they are actually not green anymore. Even under just the ATI Blue+ T5s (dawn and dusk) they have zero green to them, where there used to look somewhat green when I first moved them to the DT.

Are they bleached (Zoozanthelae loss)? Maybe, but I have a hard time believing that they've expelled the majority of it considering that they've probably grown atleast 50% in the few months that I've had them. I doubt they'd do that well if they weren't gaining much of their nutritional needs from their symbiotic buddies, but I'm a relative noob to reefing so I may be wrong there.

BTW, I've ordered the Seachem Reef Colors Pro test kit which includes I2, K, Fe, so hopefully I will gain some insight and/or eliminate a few more possibilities.

 

[chrishayes]

I can't tell u a specific water parameter but I doubt it's iron. When I had the coral in my qt I was dosing iron for macros. I do the same in my main tank. I would say its to do with overall water quality even if u aren't reading any nitrate or phosphate there are tons of negative things that impact water quality that we can't read. Just so u know bot my tanks that housed this coral measured nothing in nitrate or phosphate but I know the quality is higher in my main tank due to better color and growth. I suspect that's due to having a proper skimmer and fuge along with better care on my part.

Lighting could play a roll though since the qt I had had a old Phoenix in it then switched to a more yellow 14k whereas my main tank runs a radium. The more lue the light the better fluorescence typically is seen in green coral. I see 10k making green coral look tan.

 

[MammothReefer]

Hey Tang Daddy, you're right I did get them from a fellow reefer in Richmond. As for the lighting they were originally under a 14k Phoenix bulb when they lost their color. It's not just that the colors don't pop under my 10k bulb, they are actually not green anymore. Even under just the ATI Blue+ T5s (dawn and dusk) they have zero green to them, where there used to look somewhat green when I first moved them to the DT.

Are they bleached (Zoozanthelae loss)? Maybe, but I have a hard time believing that they've expelled the majority of it considering that they've probably grown atleast 50% in the few months that I've had them. I doubt they'd do that well if they weren't gaining much of their nutritional needs from their symbiotic buddies, but I'm a relative noob to reefing so I may be wrong there.

BTW, I've ordered the Seachem Reef Colors Pro test kit which includes I2, K, Fe, so hopefully I will gain some insight and/or eliminate a few more possibilities.

If it's growing and appears healthy. I wouldn't worry about it. At some point you'll be ready to switch your bulbs, try something different then. Just out curiosity how often do you do water changes, and what salt do you use?

 

[danil]

Nope, no carbon dosing for me. Actually the mother colonies of these frags were under LEDs (Maxspect I think?) and were a strong green, so I don't think it's your LEDs causing your issue. From what I read iron deficiency will manifest itself by green SPS losing their green color so I'm working to get my hands on a decent iron test kit to see where I'm at. Hopefully this thread will continue to generate ideas on the matter.

I'm looking into Iron deficiency for 'green' color too and one thing I found there is no one opinion on that. Red Sea recommends for coloration keep iron at 0.15ppm but Randy claims its too much since NSW level is something in 0.00006ppm.
From my personal experience I got my greens back when I had nutrients spike. My green was so bright it was glowing... unfortunately not all corals liked it.. some of my acro turns brown. But monti cup was(became) super green.

forget to say. I bought Iron test kit (RedSea) and it reads 0.

 

[MammothReefer]

I have to wonder how people end up with these deficiencies of trace elements in the first place. Are you guys not doing regular water changes? Potassium I understand if you are a ZEO/Carbon user as there is an extra draw on that, but for the rest of us? What gives we aren't talking like he has some massive 3'x3' coral here, can the demand be that great?

 

[Homeytwist]

I usually do water changes on average every 6 weeks or so, and that will usually be 10-15gal out of a 90gal system using IO salt. I know that the accepted standard is approx. 15% every 4 weeks, but there are also quite a number of very successfull systems with far fewer water changes (if any schedule at all) so I'm not quite ready to accept that simply changing more water more often will fix everything.

I don't have a pile of corals in the tank, maybe 10 frags and 3 small colonies of LPS and SPS (and one large rock covered in GSP) so it's unlikely that they're stripping trace elements from the water, but I've always had an issue with some sort of nuiscance algae; really bad brown algae early on, followed by dynoflagelates. Now is an acceptable growth of algae on the back walls and some cyano on the sand, and possibly dyno again (arggh). If anything I'd guess that those are more likely stripping things like iron from the water column, and may explain why I've never had a healthy growth of green algae in the system. I also grow Chaeto in the sump but it's barely ever done anything except for a week or so of rapid growth shortly after my 10day blackout to combat the dyno a few months back.

 

[MammothReefer]

I usually do water changes on average every 6 weeks or so, and that will usually be 10-15gal out of a 90gal system using IO salt. I know that the accepted standard is approx. 15% every 4 weeks, but there are also quite a number of very successfull systems with far fewer water changes (if any schedule at all) so I'm not quite ready to accept that simply changing more water more often will fix everything.

I don't have a pile of corals in the tank, maybe 10 frags and 3 small colonies of LPS and SPS (and one large rock covered in GSP) so it's unlikely that they're stripping trace elements from the water, but I've always had an issue with some sort of nuiscance algae; really bad brown algae early on, followed by dynoflagelates. Now is an acceptable growth of algae on the back walls and some cyano on the sand, and possibly dyno again (arggh). If anything I'd guess that those are more likely stripping things like iron from the water column, and may explain why I've never had a healthy growth of green algae in the system. I also grow Chaeto in the sump but it's barely ever done anything except for a week or so of rapid growth shortly after my 10day blackout to combat the dyno a few months back.

I try upping your water changes to see if you can get things back to matching your New Salt Water. 10-15 gallons on a 90 gallon (plus sump volume) every 6 weeks or so.. which can be what every 8- 12weeks? Isn't very much. If I don't do a water change BI-monthly I see trouble. I'm doing 15 gallons on a 65+15 (plus sump) weekly.

 

[edsreef]

I have to wonder how people end up with these deficiencies of trace elements in the first place. Are you guys not doing regular water changes? Potassium I understand if you are a ZEO/Carbon user as there is an extra draw on that, but for the rest of us? What gives we aren't talking like he has some massive 3'x3' coral here, can the demand be that great?

We don't know that a there is a trace element deficiency at all; AFAIK, the problem has not been pinned down yet.
I do 10% every 2wks, Kent salt.

 

[danil]

I tried to follow advises from reefers with great tanks and they say - do weekly/bi-weekly WC. My tank is stable (finally) and now I'm trying to focus on colors... and I can say for sure for my tank WC has very little effect (if any) on coral coloration. Once I stopped doing WC to see how it will effect my system. I run tank without WC for about 6 weeks and have not seen any negative (or positive) effect. My tanks vitals stay the same and colors were... well the same. So I start my WC (just to follow advises) and now think what can I do to color up my SPS.

 

[MammothReefer]

We don't know that a there is a trace element deficiency at all; AFAIK, the problem has not been pinned down yet.
I do 10% every 2wks, Kent salt.

No we don't know that for sure, which is exactly why water changes are a good thing to do. It covers a LARGE amount of possibilities. Both known and unknown.

(not sure what your water change schedule has to do with OPs..) but..

When you have trouble in your tank you can typically break into down into 3 different general causes.
1) Equipment Failure or Misconfiguration (old bulbs, to much light, not enough light, power head leaking volts, improperly configured reactor or dosing pumps) Solution: Fix, or reconfigure equipment.

2) Pests (Aefw, Monti eating nudis, red bugs, fish picking on corals). Solution: Remove pests.

3) Issues with Water (unknown pathogens, imbalances in water, to many nutrients, testable or non-testable parameters are out of sync, etc). Solution: Water change*

*If you know your alk is low you can dose more alk, but the cause of the issue is improperly configured equipment.

 

[Homeytwist]

Hey MammothReefer, I appreciate your advice to increase the WC frequency, and it's sound advice. That works for a lot of people and should take care of most water quality issues. That being said, I work in the computer industry and there are many things that can go wrong with a computer. If something does go wrong, there's one surefire way to fix it; buy a new one. It'll work, but it's expensive and takes time out of the rest of your life. To me this is the same kind of blanket answer.

What are we trying to accomplish by changing water? Removing the buildup of unwanted substances and replenishing the substances that get consumed. In my particular system the bioload is very low, and I'm happy to limit the number and size of animals in my system to reduce the buildup of nutrients etc. Now if I can nail down the major sunstances that are consumed and simply monitor and replenish those on a regular basis, then that is what I'm after. Minimal cost and time to maintain the system, with the bonus of having a better understanding of what is actually happening in there.

I might be able to solve my coloration issues by going on a crazy WC rampage for the next couple months, but I haven't really solved my problem in that I don't understand what the deficiency was in the first place. I believe that as reefers we have the collective tools and knowledge to nail these things down, and that's what I'm after.

 

[MammothReefer]

Hi Homeytwist,
I have to disagree with you the 2 scenarios aren't relevant to each other. I am a programmer, and system administrator. (well now I manage devs). With computers if you know the video card is bad you replace the video card. It's that simple. Need to update a driver you update a driver. When it comes to the computer industry we created it all we understand it. There is no "trace element, or electronic warfare, your pc can't get a bacteria infection from mold in your house, you power isn't going to . You can find an infinite amount of information to the point where you can learn as much or as little as you want about your computer and how to maintain it.

When it comes to maintaining reef tanks, there is still a lot of unknown. We can't test for everything, we don't test for everything. We don't have a concrete way of doing things. Some people run there tanks at one set of parameters some at others, there are 100 different ways to do things and each have there own side effects both good and bad some we know of (ie gfo consumes alk) and some we don't. What we do know however that doing water changes displaces the unknowns with a preset range of parameters that are acceptable by the organisms we keep.

Sure it might cost a little more to do water changes, but it does so much for you and it's simple to do. It stabilizes your parameters, it reduces any unwanted and unknown chemistry changes in our water, reduces nutrients, replenishes trace elements, and more. Our tanks aren't as simple as a "nutrient build up and reduction." Ya we can nail down the basics, but that's all they are basics. 90% of us don't know if our potassium, iron, and so many other things outside of say "ph, nitrate, nitrite, calc, alk, mag, ammonia, temp, and salinity'. That's pretty much all most people test for. When you can tell me via a test kit that an unacceptable level of Neurotoxins are present in my tank then maybe we will be ready to do more then just change the water when something inexplicable is going on.

There just isn't a clear formula to a perfect SPS tank, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. When it comes to our tanks Many people do the same thing and get different results, and what's even weirder is many people do different things but get the same results.

When it doubt.. water change worse case you're water is a little cleaner, and your out a pennies on the dollar compared to the cost of live stock.

Hey MammothReefer, I appreciate your advice to increase the WC frequency, and it's sound advice. That works for a lot of people and should take care of most water quality issues. That being said, I work in the computer industry and there are many things that can go wrong with a computer. If something does go wrong, there's one surefire way to fix it; buy a new one. It'll work, but it's expensive and takes time out of the rest of your life. To me this is the same kind of blanket answer.

What are we trying to accomplish by changing water? Removing the buildup of unwanted substances and replenishing the substances that get consumed. In my particular system the bioload is very low, and I'm happy to limit the number and size of animals in my system to reduce the buildup of nutrients etc. Now if I can nail down the major sunstances that are consumed and simply monitor and replenish those on a regular basis, then that is what I'm after. Minimal cost and time to maintain the system, with the bonus of having a better understanding of what is actually happening in there.

I might be able to solve my coloration issues by going on a crazy WC rampage for the next couple months, but I haven't really solved my problem in that I don't understand what the deficiency was in the first place. I believe that as reefers we have the collective tools and knowledge to nail these things down, and that's what I'm after.

 

[edsreef]

No we don't know that for sure, which is exactly why water changes are a good thing to do. It covers a LARGE amount of possibilities. Both known and unknown.

(not sure what your water change schedule has to do with OPs..) but..

My point is, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I too have a similar problem with green monti caps and I do regular, consistant water changes.

 

[Homeytwist]

I fear that I've taken this thread off course toward a debate on water change frequency (not that I mind a good debate!). You make a good point Mammoth, my computer analogy was perhaps a poor choice. That being said, a debate on WC frequency is not something I want to get into.

I guess what it comes down to is that I'm not unwilling to accept that in order to be succesfull I may have to do water changes of greater amounts and more frequently, but I would like to leave that as a last resort. I don't have a fish room with a permanently plumbed RO/DI setup and can make water changes with the turn of a few valves etc. etc. I've gotta tie up one of the two sinks in the home for the better part of a day with my filtration equipment, and have buckets of water sitting in the living room for atleast another day while the salt mixes, followed by a mess to clean up after every water change. For me it's a PITA, so if I can find some of the major deficiencies and take care of those with periodic dosing in order to stretch out the WC frequency that is what I am after. Hopefully to avoid stirring the pot any further; I'm not saying that this should be people's goal in general but simply that this is the goal for my needs.

Again, I appreciate the input and your time Mammoth.

 

[Felixc395]

Monti's in general are good potassium indicators. Couldn't hurt to pick up a potassium iodide solution and see what happens. If Monti's looked washed out, potassium can certainly help.

Like mentioned the other factor is lighting. With 10k I'm not sure what wouldnt look partially washed out.

 

[MammothReefer]

My point is, I mentioned earlier in the thread that I too have a similar problem with green monti caps and I do regular, consistant water changes.

ah missed that point. Well have you always had those issues? What salt do you use. I recently had this nitemare issue with montis where I was able to keep any encrusting, and most plating montis, but for some strange reason (that i still haven't figured out with 100% certainty) I was unable to keep a couple very specific montis. Any green cap with purple rim -tried 3 different ones, digis, and the red cap with yellow polyps (even though I have a regular red cap that is growing like crazy). They all just turned grey and died slowly. Finally I got fed up, switched back to IO from RCSP and a few big water changes and POOF I can now keep them all. What was the exact reason I may never know but the problem is fixed things are growing and the colour is correct. So that's why I suggest it to others, I know what worked for me in a similar situation (electricity) is another odd which I mentioned before where montis are the first to show issues.

However..back to the original issue. I still believe and stand by my original post he has a happy growing yellowed out Green cap, because he has 10k bulbs. Others disagree but I personally know 3-4 people who ran 10k bulbs tried to keep that cap and that's the colour it turned. I had a potassium issue in an old tank of mine and that result was very different for my montis. Stressed/Dying montis turn grey if you have ever left a coral out of water to long, or received on that has been shipped and gotten to cold) You know the look. This one has PE growth and is just an odd colour

 

[Homeytwist]

Thanks for the tip Felix. I've got a Red Sea Reef Colors Pro test kit ordered and in transit (I2, K, Fe) so I will check that too of course.

Now I want to make sure I'm understanding you both when you refer to a 10k bulb making a coral look washed out; do you mean that an otherwise properly colored coral will looked washed out under that particular lamp, or that prolonged exposure to that lamp will cause a coral to wash out and lose that color to the point that it is dull under any lamp. I'm quite familiar with the way corals look under different lighting; at dawn and dusk it's only the T5's on which are 2x ATI Blue+ and the other greens, particularly the crazy radioactive trumpet glow like mad, but when the 10k MH comes on for the bulk of the day of course it drowns out a majority of that glow. That being said it's not like my monti's have good coloration under high kelvin lighting then look washed out under the 10k MH, that would be an easy fix.

 

[MammothReefer]

Thanks for the tip Felix. I've got a Red Sea Reef Colors Pro test kit ordered and in transit (I2, K, Fe) so I will check that too of course.

Now I want to make sure I'm understanding you both when you refer to a 10k bulb making a coral look washed out; do you mean that an otherwise properly colored coral will looked washed out under that particular lamp, or that prolonged exposure to that lamp will cause a coral to wash out and lose that color to the point that it is dull under any lamp. I'm quite familiar with the way corals look under different lighting; at dawn and dusk it's only the T5's on which are 2x ATI Blue+ and the other greens, particularly the crazy radioactive trumpet glow like mad, but when the 10k MH comes on for the bulk of the day of course it drowns out a majority of that glow. That being said it's not like my monti's have good coloration under high kelvin lighting then look washed out under the 10k MH, that would be an easy fix.

No some corals like perfectly fine under 10k bulbs. However I have specifically seen that some green "Lyng Sy" style green/purple with white polyp caps have a tendency to turn yellowish under 10k bulbs.

Check it out.. Good friend of mines tank. Amazing colours on everything 10k bulb (with 2 pc actinics) notice the Green cap is yellow. (note: she has a 150w bulb not a 250w which is accounting for the deeper colour.) Frags from her turned Green again in my tank with my 20k XMs or 20k Helios. I had 400w SE's at the time.

(She had totm back in the days)
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