Grounding probes: Hazard or helpful?
- Thread starter Edward Smith
- Start date
Young Frankenstein
New member
It is MORE likely that the circuit breaker WILL NOT trip in MOST cases. Why not ? thats what the circuit breaker does. As a matter of fact if it was fresh water I would say maybe. But in saltwater changes are it will since saltwater is more conductive than fresh. I am not saying it will give you a dead short....but maybe in a short time span of overprint it will.
Furthermore, a circuit breaker is NOT designed to protect YOU. It is designed to protect the CIRCUIT. Did I say that
I have gone into this more than once with you and I am not planing to doit again. END ON MY PART.....YOU KNOW IT ALL BRO.
Furthermore, a circuit breaker is NOT designed to protect YOU. It is designed to protect the CIRCUIT. Did I say that
I have gone into this more than once with you and I am not planing to doit again. END ON MY PART.....YOU KNOW IT ALL BRO.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
With all due respect, you are rather off base here. It is very uncommon for a circuit breaker to trip due to a partial short. THAT IS WHY GFCI PROTECTION IS MANDATED IN WET AREAS.
A circuit breaker is designed to trip above its RATED current. Lets say you have a 15A branch circuit feeding your heater and submersible pump. Lets say the circuit is loaded to 10A. That leaves 5A of headroom before the breaker will trip. What in the world makes you think ALL faults will be capable of flowing that 5A? It is MORE COMMON for the fault to be partial and NOT trip the circuit breaker. More often than not FAULTS are NOT sufficient to trip a branch circuit breaker. That is why GFCIs are so important.
A faulty pump on one side of the system and a ground probe on the other may only flow a few hundred mA, enough to ELECTROCUTE you, but not nearly enough to trip the breaker.
Saltwater pouring into a powerstrip is more likely to start a fire than it is to trip the breaker.
The fact is that circuit breakers rarely trip due to wiring OR equipment faults. You can visit the NFPA website and read all the statistics that you can get your hands on.
Counting on the conductivity of the saltwater to trip the breaker because a fault flows enough current to drive a 15A or 20A circuit breaker into overload is crazy. It is bad for you and bad for your livestock. PERIOD.
I will make it very clear for you and anybody else reading this thread. There are MANY circumstances where a partial short can cause large currents to potentially flow through your TANK or your BODY. The use of a ground probe WITHOUT a GFCI can be very deadly under many circumstances.
It was infered by your comment that ". I am 50-50 on that since a ground probe will probably trip the circuit breaker due to over current in some cases. When that comment is taken in context with the rest of your comments regarding this topic. So yes, you DID in effect say that. However, the point of MY comment was to ensure that OTHER people reading this thread have a very clear understanding.Furthermore, a circuit breaker is NOT designed to protect YOU. It is designed to protect the CIRCUIT. Did I say that
I will point it out again for the benefit of anybody else reading this thread. Circuit breakers are designed to protect the wiring in your home and prevent overheating of the wires. They are not intended to protect humans from shock. That is what a GFCI is designed to do.
Your rude comment was uncalled for.
I can save you the trouble of "getting into it". There is NOTHING to debate here.
1) Many (most) common faults in AND out of the aquarium are NOT sufficient to trip a branch circuit breaker.
2) An aquarium ground probe used WITHOUT GFCI protection of the system creates an ELECTROCTION hazard that was not directly present before introduction of the probe.
It follows that a whenever a ground probe is used in the aquarium, that GFCI protection SHOULD be used on all of the tanks equipment.
You asked for reasons why a GFCI should be used with a ground probe. I KINDLY supplied reasons. If you are able to show me to be wrong, then please KINDLY do so.
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Young Frankenstein
New member
:beachbum: :wavehand:
barnett8
Member
I am sorry i have offended you. Here is the way I see it: if the grounding probe is hooked up to a GFCI then it will just trip the circut, and will turn off everything. So, what if you're not home when this happens? Then it is as good as a power outage and will kill things.
If your outlet is not GFCI then you will complete the circut and will hurt your tank inhabitants. It is grounding that kills you when you are electrocuted (which is why birds cqan sit on electrical wires: they are not grounded, if it was it would die.) When there is just some stray voltage in the aquarium then having it stay in there is less harmful to inhabitants then grounding it IMO.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Not offended at all my friend. The +1 stuff just drives me nuts, nothing personal at all
I sometimes rant about it to make myself feel better. You don't hook the probe to a GFCI, that would not help anything.
It is BEST PRACTICE to place the critical equipment on seperate GFCIs (and or branch circuits). That way a faulting piece of equipment or a nuisance trip does not take down the entire tank.
Yes, some people do follow that logic. As long as you understand the risks, then going without a grounding probe is an option. However, (as stated several times above) if you use a grounding probe, then you really should be protecting everyting with GFCIs.
As for a bird on a wire.... Yes grounding the bird would kill it... BUT don't be misled! Current DOES flow through the bird. You can apply the same physics to a fish.
So how does current flow through the bird?
The birds body has resistance. It has TWO legs that touch the wire at a fixed distance. The wire DOES have resistance. The resistance can be calculated for the section of wire between the birds legs. The birds body is therefore a PARALLEL RESISTOR in the circuit and using OHM'S law, one can EASILY calculate the current through tweety
Saltwater has resistance, so does the fish. However, it is slightly different in the fact that the fish is IN the conductor, not parallel to it at two points. Things get a bit complicated because the entire tank may not be at the same potential (current can actually take a narrow PATH through the tank, insteading of the WHOLE tank). Anyway, we can talk about the fish being IN the conductor and consider how much of the overall actual current flows THROUGH the fish instead of AROUND the fish.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Who was he before STU?
aztecaphoto
Member
Ok. Just to know if I got it...
1. Is mandatory to have GFCI in all the equipment. Better in separete GFCis, so if one fails, the other ones work, right?
2. If GFCI is mandatory, is it better to get a ground prove or not?
3. I will not be worried about fishes, IF my life is in between. So, if a ground prove will suply "tiny" current to the tank, is it better to have it without it? It will work the GFCI as it should, without the Ground prove?
Thanks for your reply
1. Is mandatory to have GFCI in all the equipment. Better in separete GFCis, so if one fails, the other ones work, right?
2. If GFCI is mandatory, is it better to get a ground prove or not?
3. I will not be worried about fishes, IF my life is in between. So, if a ground prove will suply "tiny" current to the tank, is it better to have it without it? It will work the GFCI as it should, without the Ground prove?
Thanks for your reply
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Ahh... if that is the case, then we have had this conversation before.. and the outcome was about the same.
aztecaphoto:
1) Yes
2) A ground probe enhances the operation of the GFCI, so YES.
3) Yes, there can still be small current present even with the GFCI and Ground Probe. The source of the current is induced voltage, not voltage/current directly from any of the equipments power supplies. The current will be very small and likely not a problem at all. You will be MUCH safer.
aztecaphoto:
1) Yes
2) A ground probe enhances the operation of the GFCI, so YES.
3) Yes, there can still be small current present even with the GFCI and Ground Probe. The source of the current is induced voltage, not voltage/current directly from any of the equipments power supplies. The current will be very small and likely not a problem at all. You will be MUCH safer.
Young Frankenstein
New member
Thats correct!
And starting Tuesday I will setup a 10g with as a test tank, do any test you guys want, and put this nonsense behind us. Hoping we all will come to some agreement.
Do you all agree to do the tests ?
Young Frankenstein
New member
I like this one better, and I made shore everyone at the time new of the change
nothing to hide the RC admins were kind enough to doit 
stugray
Premium Member
Young Frankenstein,
"do any test you guys want"
One trick will be to setup the whole system, then measure the isolation ( of the bulk water ) to ground as new components are added.
The beauty of trying a test tank, is that you could even use a Megger to check isolation as you go without harming inhabitants.
A previous thread on the subject mentioned that things like external pumps & Chillers will count as ground probes since they have low resistance paths to ground through the internals.
I would like to know how these different appliances contribute to grounding.
Another good test would be to see if a broken glass heater ( arcs & sparks ) will trip a circuit breaker versus a GFCI. ( I already know the answer for MY setup ;-)
A youtube video of salt water poured on a power strip would be very educational as well.....
Based on your High Voltage experimentation, you are fearless... ;-)
Stu
"do any test you guys want"
One trick will be to setup the whole system, then measure the isolation ( of the bulk water ) to ground as new components are added.
The beauty of trying a test tank, is that you could even use a Megger to check isolation as you go without harming inhabitants.
A previous thread on the subject mentioned that things like external pumps & Chillers will count as ground probes since they have low resistance paths to ground through the internals.
I would like to know how these different appliances contribute to grounding.
Another good test would be to see if a broken glass heater ( arcs & sparks ) will trip a circuit breaker versus a GFCI. ( I already know the answer for MY setup ;-)
A youtube video of salt water poured on a power strip would be very educational as well.....
Based on your High Voltage experimentation, you are fearless... ;-)
Stu
aztecaphoto
Member
BeanAnimal: Thanks a lot! I will do it by shure.
Also, I´ll grab a chair to see this test... (Gee, a reality show!)
Also, I´ll grab a chair to see this test... (Gee, a reality show!)
Harry_Fish
In Memoriam
stugray,
How Exactly are we supposed to hook up a Gnd probe with a GFCI?
About 20 years a go I had a powerhead where the insulation broke down, was quite a energizing feeling to have a hot tank.
Of course this was in my Pre-GFCI days.
Later the company had a recall seems like a lot of them had this problem.
How Exactly are we supposed to hook up a Gnd probe with a GFCI?
About 20 years a go I had a powerhead where the insulation broke down, was quite a energizing feeling to have a hot tank.
Of course this was in my Pre-GFCI days.
Later the company had a recall seems like a lot of them had this problem.
Freed
It's what it's
I was under the impression the current(very low) travels AROUND the object and not THRU the object, ie, over the surface area of the object. Just as the current travels AROUND the high tension line workers when they are walking high up on the wires working on the high tension towers, etc.
Harry_Fish
In Memoriam
I always thought DC flowed through a conductor and AC flowed on the surface, Hence skin effect.
That is why RF coils are only silver plated and not solid silver.
That is why RF coils are only silver plated and not solid silver.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The only reason the current flows AROUND the high tension lineman is because he wears a HOT SUIT. It is in essence a Faraday cage that ensures that the current has a better path around the suit, then it does through the body.
The BIRD gets away without the suit because its feet are so close together (the WIRE between the feet is SHORT and therefore has LITTLE resistance) and the body is so small and has a high resistance. Ohm's law at work
The BIRD gets away without the suit because its feet are so close together (the WIRE between the feet is SHORT and therefore has LITTLE resistance) and the body is so small and has a high resistance. Ohm's law at work
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