Group Buys - PLEASE read!
- Thread starter FiberLux
- Start date
Naperville Reef
New member
mike -
i do understand what you are saying which is why i said i would apologize to Boyd if i misinterpreted his intent. but i still think Boyd's post was inappropriate and it would have made more sense for him to discuss this issue outside of my group buy thread.
anyways, i don't want to harp on this any longer. feel free to delete Boyd's post in my thread and any follow up posts that i made as well.
Ramble On Rose
New member
I think restricting any sort of interaction or group order is against the very concept of reef group. ONE of the benefits of the group is the discount at stores, but for years it has always been somewhat frowned upon those that signup just for the discount. It seems like the President saying that CMAS is considering banning group orders from non-CMAS stores almost makes it sound like there may be some conflict of interest. Who is supposed to benefit from this club? The stores or the members? If members do not want to participate in group orders - dont. If stores feal that they are not benefiting from providing the discount I am sure they will not hesitate to stop. Are members going to recieve an additional discount (or benefit) if you no longer allow group orders from stores that are not CMAS supporters? I think the choice should be left up to the consumer.
FiberLux
New member
Rob, as I said in your thread, I am certainly not trying to be judgemental or malicious in any way! I'm sorry you took my position that way.
As far as being appropriate, I am no longer just another local hobbyist. As your new CMAS president, I must look for ways to make CMAS better and more beneficial to all of us.
I think there is a way we can suppost our local LFS and get what we want.
Please come to the meeting and lets discuss what we can do to make CMAS better.
Boyd
RobTop
New member
I have spent untold cash on-line, wholesale and retail. I love the price of on-line/wholesale, but there are things they just can not provide that I am willing to pay an extra buck for. Things like "oh crap I need ... NOW" After overnight shipping it is cheaper to go buy from a LFS if you need it now. Truly getting WYSIWYG, some sites seem to be unable to get that stright. I have lost chuncks of cash on orders that only promise alive arival, what about 2 days later? And don't tell me it is my fault till you see my system and know the specifics of the maintaince(you being the supplier not the reader) plus i think I have a couple bills worth of credits out there. At a LFS a credit does not suck up another shipping charge. And for me the best part of buying at a LFS is the bond/loyalty that is build. Not the hobbiests loyalty to a shop or two, but those shops loyalty to me. You show a bit to the store the store will show it back. I've been given price breaks, bought things at cost, been given things for free, left with a tab and when I try to even it out they tell me to forget about it, they did. I know I didn't get these things from my good looks or charming personality as I have neither. It was the last time I was in, and the time before that and before that too. These LFS owners know who their customers are and take care of them.
Now I am not saying a group buy has no place. But as Boyd suggests let the LFS try to take care of it. Rockford Reefers have done a few group buys, both on-line and from LFS. Through a LFS you may pay a few bucks more, but you have someone to see face to face if an issue comes up.
Here is a perfect one to test the waters with. Salt everyone needs it, a lot of us here get IO at petsmart for $32. If we all went in on a buy the lucky LFS would likly have a large enough order to get a nice price brake, and or no shipping charge. Most LFS will see the opportunity to have 50+ reefers in thier store over say a weekend and be stocked to the gills. Win Win for all involved.
Now I am not saying a group buy has no place. But as Boyd suggests let the LFS try to take care of it. Rockford Reefers have done a few group buys, both on-line and from LFS. Through a LFS you may pay a few bucks more, but you have someone to see face to face if an issue comes up.
Here is a perfect one to test the waters with. Salt everyone needs it, a lot of us here get IO at petsmart for $32. If we all went in on a buy the lucky LFS would likly have a large enough order to get a nice price brake, and or no shipping charge. Most LFS will see the opportunity to have 50+ reefers in thier store over say a weekend and be stocked to the gills. Win Win for all involved.
FiberLux
New member
Jim, Sorry I didn't respond sooner!
The short answer is yes! As LFS Liaison for CMAS over the past eight months, I've talked to several LFS about CMAS and what can be done to improve.
I do believe that we can come up with a solution, whether we set up for LFS to bid on group buys or do certain types of group buys with one vendor or another.
I didn't make the post as some sort of threat to ban or restrict group buys. Its a call to discuss, resolve and act. That's oneof the subjects on the agenda for January 20.....
Boyd
schwaz
New member
Im finding this an interesting discussion. Just a couple of things.
Boyd, are you getting comments from CMAS sponsoring LFS regarding CMAS group orders on this page? Have they expressed displeasure or concern with the practice or CMAS endorsed group buys? Or is this simply a potential problem you are trying to address?
Also, what I think gets sticky, is the use of this board. Is this board an "official" CMAS board? I guess what im getting at is, even if we did decide it would be in the best interests of the club to ban group orders through non-sponsor vendors, what would prevent non-dues paying chicagoland reefers from logging on and organizing buys? Would it be within the Authority of the club to close thoes threads on this page?
I really dont have too much of an opinion on this topic. Everyone has different criteria for how theyre gonna spend their money. Im guess im just a little curious about how closely linked the club/meetings and this board are. I dont want to see anyone prevented from organizing freely, but at the same time, I like meeting raffels. And I guess I fail to see how using the board to organize buying is anydifferent than if members organized buying face to face at a meeting? Would our sponsors be bothered by that? I would hope not.
Boyd, are you getting comments from CMAS sponsoring LFS regarding CMAS group orders on this page? Have they expressed displeasure or concern with the practice or CMAS endorsed group buys? Or is this simply a potential problem you are trying to address?
Also, what I think gets sticky, is the use of this board. Is this board an "official" CMAS board? I guess what im getting at is, even if we did decide it would be in the best interests of the club to ban group orders through non-sponsor vendors, what would prevent non-dues paying chicagoland reefers from logging on and organizing buys? Would it be within the Authority of the club to close thoes threads on this page?
I really dont have too much of an opinion on this topic. Everyone has different criteria for how theyre gonna spend their money. Im guess im just a little curious about how closely linked the club/meetings and this board are. I dont want to see anyone prevented from organizing freely, but at the same time, I like meeting raffels. And I guess I fail to see how using the board to organize buying is anydifferent than if members organized buying face to face at a meeting? Would our sponsors be bothered by that? I would hope not.
Naperville Reef
New member
Boyd,
as i said earlier i appreciate your effort as the CMAS president. and while i think this discussion is a good one to discuss, i just don't think it was appropriate to bring up in my thread.
let's just move on......
now, here are my thoughts on the issue as a whole. i would LOVE to buy everything form an LFS but, quite frankly, that is just not reasonable.
imo, Rod is by far the most knowledgable reefer around. he has helped me out tremendously. if i am asking for his opinion on a coral, fish, or dry good and he gives me some advice then i will find the time to go out to his place and purchase it. but at the same time, if there is something i decide on my own that i want then i will find the cheapest place to purchase it from (mainly because Rod's Reef is a little out of the way).
also, outside of Rod i feel NO loyalty to any LFS and in all honestly they have not given me a reason to. why should i go to Deep Reef to buy $100 worth of fish when i can order it online for $50 or so? yes there are some advantages to seeing the fish in person but that certainly does not gauruntee it's health.
i would love to give my business to a LFS but at the same time they need to give me a reason to........
as i said earlier i appreciate your effort as the CMAS president. and while i think this discussion is a good one to discuss, i just don't think it was appropriate to bring up in my thread.
let's just move on......
now, here are my thoughts on the issue as a whole. i would LOVE to buy everything form an LFS but, quite frankly, that is just not reasonable.
imo, Rod is by far the most knowledgable reefer around. he has helped me out tremendously. if i am asking for his opinion on a coral, fish, or dry good and he gives me some advice then i will find the time to go out to his place and purchase it. but at the same time, if there is something i decide on my own that i want then i will find the cheapest place to purchase it from (mainly because Rod's Reef is a little out of the way).
also, outside of Rod i feel NO loyalty to any LFS and in all honestly they have not given me a reason to. why should i go to Deep Reef to buy $100 worth of fish when i can order it online for $50 or so? yes there are some advantages to seeing the fish in person but that certainly does not gauruntee it's health.
i would love to give my business to a LFS but at the same time they need to give me a reason to........
FiberLux
New member
Thanks Schwaz for the question!
Yes, every LFS I've met has expressed concern over online group buys. If you check with other reef clubs, you will find the same thing everywhere.
The main reason I bring it up is that we (CMAS) are looking at ways we can improve for our members and our sponsors.
As far as the CMAS club and this forum, that is another discussion to be had. Since any RC member can post on the forum, there is no CMAS membership requirement for it.
Boyd
Naperville Reef
New member
Boyd..... on a somewhat related note could you please explain to me the relationship between CMAS and the CMAS website we are posting on. i am assuming there is no cost associated with it.
also, what do LFS sponsors actually do to support CMAS? this forum has offered me LOTS of help and info and i think it is only appropriate that i support it as well and i am currently not a member. how do i join?
also, what do LFS sponsors actually do to support CMAS? this forum has offered me LOTS of help and info and i think it is only appropriate that i support it as well and i am currently not a member. how do i join?
I'll confirm that one. The Southern California area is very difficult. Imagine having every possible wholesaler, quite literally, in your backyard. Group buys there are usually direct with a wholesaler or in some cases, direct with a collector straight from Hawaii. It is incredibly difficult to survive as an LFS there. I'm not saying Group Buys are the sole reason for that, but it likely does not help.
Kmiec123
Actual CMAS Member
My two cent...FWIW,
I feel if Boyd was asked this question from even one LFS he is obligated to bring it to the attention of the members of CMAS as its president. I thank Boyd for that. I have, in the past, thought of this issue and wasn't sure were I stood. I know feel that society as a whole is getting quite greedy. I love the costumer service I receive at the LFS's I patron, otherwise I would not go there. I am willing to pay extra to ensure they stay in business, however five times markup is more than a little extreme.
I'm not in anyway saying I'm better than anyone or perfect because I am far from it, but I do try to shop American if possible.(not easy to do these days) I prefer shopping at K-mart over Wal-Mart because I feel Wal-Mart is the main cause of the loss of pension and benefits offered to employees of a company and K-mart is still trying to be union based. Of course it's not just Wal-Mart it's our greed to get the cheapest price at any expense. I just would rater spend a couple more bucks on an item so that that merchant can provide some sort of benefits to employees, other than $8 dollars per hour.
I think we have failed to realize that we thee people, as individuals, are the only ones who can make a difference in any area we are displeased in. Sometime sacrifices have to be made or being inconvenience, such as car pooling to lower gas prices. We always have a choice in what commodity we buy and directly affect the price. Its easy to complain and to point fingers, but whenever we point a finger...three fingers are pointing back at ourselves. It is a matter of Action to change this not complaining.
That being said, I do feel negotiation can be accomplished. As stated if I go pick up two buckets of salt from a LFS on a group buy for $32 chances are I'm buying something. That's the was my mind works, if I save some money I can spend more...Working on that one This is an interesting issue and I hope my comments didn't bore you too much. I know I can't change the world I can only change me and chances are, unless agreed upon with LFS and CMAS, you won't see my name in group buy. We always have the option of starting our own business to take advantage of wholesale cost if we wish to absorb the risk as well.
Hope I ain't rambling too much and best to all....Carl
I feel if Boyd was asked this question from even one LFS he is obligated to bring it to the attention of the members of CMAS as its president. I thank Boyd for that. I have, in the past, thought of this issue and wasn't sure were I stood. I know feel that society as a whole is getting quite greedy. I love the costumer service I receive at the LFS's I patron, otherwise I would not go there. I am willing to pay extra to ensure they stay in business, however five times markup is more than a little extreme.
I'm not in anyway saying I'm better than anyone or perfect because I am far from it, but I do try to shop American if possible.(not easy to do these days) I prefer shopping at K-mart over Wal-Mart because I feel Wal-Mart is the main cause of the loss of pension and benefits offered to employees of a company and K-mart is still trying to be union based. Of course it's not just Wal-Mart it's our greed to get the cheapest price at any expense. I just would rater spend a couple more bucks on an item so that that merchant can provide some sort of benefits to employees, other than $8 dollars per hour.
I think we have failed to realize that we thee people, as individuals, are the only ones who can make a difference in any area we are displeased in. Sometime sacrifices have to be made or being inconvenience, such as car pooling to lower gas prices. We always have a choice in what commodity we buy and directly affect the price. Its easy to complain and to point fingers, but whenever we point a finger...three fingers are pointing back at ourselves. It is a matter of Action to change this not complaining.
That being said, I do feel negotiation can be accomplished. As stated if I go pick up two buckets of salt from a LFS on a group buy for $32 chances are I'm buying something. That's the was my mind works, if I save some money I can spend more...Working on that one
This is an interesting issue and I hope my comments didn't bore you too much. I know I can't change the world I can only change me and chances are, unless agreed upon with LFS and CMAS, you won't see my name in group buy. We always have the option of starting our own business to take advantage of wholesale cost if we wish to absorb the risk as well.Hope I ain't rambling too much and best to all....Carl
pk1
Active member
This is a fine discussion to have, but my o my the timing is horrible. I can see why Rob took offense to that post, if this is an issue CMAS has been pondering, I think posting on Rob's thread then opening this one at this time is inappropriate. Basically, your questioning the ethics of online group buy when we have LFS who support our group. And Rob is organizing a group buy with an online vendor. See what I'm getting at here?
Personally, I like group buys for equipment. I buy most of my fish from LiveAquaria, an excellent company in my opinion. I don't know about the personal details of anyone here but I don't have time to frequent many LFS, and some of the local shops leave a lot to be desired IMO. Corals-I buy online, at LFS and from fellow reefers. To get a mixture of good prices and good, hard to find livestock we need to use all the channels available, and IMO group buys can provide part of the solution to that. And to clarify, I'm talking about group buys to RETAIL establishments--group buys to wholesalers is a completely different subject, and dishonest IMO.
Personally, I like group buys for equipment. I buy most of my fish from LiveAquaria, an excellent company in my opinion. I don't know about the personal details of anyone here but I don't have time to frequent many LFS, and some of the local shops leave a lot to be desired IMO. Corals-I buy online, at LFS and from fellow reefers. To get a mixture of good prices and good, hard to find livestock we need to use all the channels available, and IMO group buys can provide part of the solution to that. And to clarify, I'm talking about group buys to RETAIL establishments--group buys to wholesalers is a completely different subject, and dishonest IMO.
FiberLux
New member
Rob, Outstanding question!
The answer might surprise you!We post on the CMAS forum hosted via Reef Central. CMAS could choose to have our forum hosted elsewhere, but we wouldn't have direct access to all that is on RC. The CMAS website (www.cmas.net) is something totally different.... It is where we have monthly announcements, sponsor list, membership listing, meeting notes, history etc.
LFS sponsorship - At this point, CMAS sponsors are asked to support us via discounts for our members only. As LFS liaison, I have asked for other things, such as raffle items, speakers and locations to hold meetings.
As CMAS, we can do such things as improving our website, changing membership criteria, looking at ways to improve membership benefits, looking for unique speakers and/or subjects, get together with other clubs and/or organizations to sponsor events. We've got all sorts of things we can change.... or not!
Boyd
Sullyman
Premium Member
Boyd, after reading your first post on this thread, I thought here we go, restrictions on group buys. But now see where you were headed and it makes sense.
I know some local stores could handle group buys for us, but what store for what order?
Won't they be more upset seeing a group buy go to another local store, than to an online vendor?
Not an easy issue, so I hope you have a good turn out to discuss it.
I know some local stores could handle group buys for us, but what store for what order?
Won't they be more upset seeing a group buy go to another local store, than to an online vendor?
Not an easy issue, so I hope you have a good turn out to discuss it.
FiberLux
New member
Sullyman, Come on Sully, that's why we need you to join us!
Great question and hopefully we'll come up with a good answer. IMO, we have some great opportunities to figure out something that works for CMAS and for the sponsors.
At this point CMAS has 20-25 sponsors, most are LFS. Of those, we need to find out which ones are willing to help us and how. I know one LFS that deals every day in rare fishes. Maybe another can do our invertebrate buys. Another specializes in dry goods....
I know for certain that most CMAS LFS sponsors could do more than give us a slight discount if they received some ROI (return on investment) for doing it.
I doubt that every LFS will want to be involved in this way. But, some will.....
Boyd
rockdiver
New member
Well there is no way a LFS can do a group buy for the same cost.
Dry goods I buy on line BUT I do ask the LFS if they could match it and I would buy from them and 9 outta 10 they cant.
Live stock I always buy from the LFS.
How many times have the LFS offered up items for CMAS raffels?
I just think its a bunch of wo ha
Dry goods I buy on line BUT I do ask the LFS if they could match it and I would buy from them and 9 outta 10 they cant.
Live stock I always buy from the LFS.
How many times have the LFS offered up items for CMAS raffels?
I just think its a bunch of wo ha
