growing corals with only actinics?

PAR is simply the measure of photons within the the spectrum from 400-700 nm. It's not corrected for action spectra, nor is there a useful way to do that.

I think this whole discussion reflects a general misunderstanding about the significance of action spectra.

First of all, make sure you're not looking at the spectrum of chlorophyll b. This is the form with the major spike around 470, but it isn't found in corals. They use chl a, which absorbs roughly equally in the red and blue. More importantly though, the chl activity spectrum isn't the activity spectrum of zooxanthellae. Zoox use a wide variety of pigments and the combined spectrum tends to be pretty flat across the whole PAR spectrum. You don't get the major drop off in the yellow like you do with chl. Generally there is some skewing towards one end or the other, usually towards blue, but not always, and this tends to be pretty minor. The activity spectrum also varies from coral to coral and even in the same coral over time. In other words, there is no single ideal spectrum for a mixed tank.

Also another point that seems to be misunderstood is that the activity spectrum simply represents the likelihood that a given photon will be absorbed- not how useful it is for photosynthesis after it's absorbed. All photons are relatively equal in that regard. The activity spectrum is really only relevant when the ability to collect photons is the rate-limiting step. In other words, it's important when photosynthesis is running below the maximum rate.

As far as efficiency goes, yes, the corals might absorb a higher percentage of the photons in the blue spectrum than the red, but once they're absorbed, a blue photon or a red one are equivalent in their ability to perform photosynthesis. The extra energy carried by the blue photon actually has to be purged as heat or fluorescence to make it equivalent to a red photon, so that energy is essentially lost. Since that extra energy that's being lost is ultimately coming from the electricity you're paying for, I'm not sure that it actually ends up being any more efficient in terms of energy use.

So what does all this mean? Well in theory, if you used a bluer light you would usually have slightly higher photosynthesis than a redder light with the same PAR, but the difference would be negligible. To get the best growth though you would simply provide saturating light intensity and the actual spectrum of the light has very little to do with that. In the real world, we're paying to produce that PAR and it costs more to do it towards the blue end. Since blue photons are more energetic, you get less of them per given energy input, therefore less PAR. This is the reason bluer bulbs tend to be lower in PAR.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13224199#post13224199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
So what does all this mean? Well in theory, if you used a bluer light you would usually have slightly higher photosynthesis than a redder light with the same PAR, but the difference would be negligible. To get the best growth though you would simply provide saturating light intensity and the actual spectrum of the light has very little to do with that. In the real world, we're paying to produce that PAR and it costs more to do it towards the blue end. Since blue photons are more energetic, you get less of them per given energy input, therefore less PAR. This is the reason bluer bulbs tend to be lower in PAR.

Exactly...

and to expand in context here:

Put enough BLUE bulbs over a tank and you will get enough energy into the tank to grow corals. It will just not be as efficient as putting a smaller number of YELLOW bulbs over the same tank to get the same growth. Furthermore, LESS POWER = LESS HEAT. So why BLUE instead of YELLOW or WHITE? Aesthetics :) Each of us has a different idea of what looks good, but most of us lean towards a bluer looking tank and the way that the corals look under bluer light.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13224199#post13224199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
PAR is simply the measure of photons within the the spectrum from 400-700 nm. It's not corrected for action spectra, nor is there a useful way to do that.

I think this whole discussion reflects a general misunderstanding about the significance of action spectra.

First of all, make sure you're not looking at the spectrum of chlorophyll b. This is the form with the major spike around 470, but it isn't found in corals. They use chl a, which absorbs roughly equally in the red and blue. More importantly though, the chl activity spectrum isn't the activity spectrum of zooxanthellae. Zoox use a wide variety of pigments and the combined spectrum tends to be pretty flat across the whole PAR spectrum. You don't get the major drop off in the yellow like you do with chl. Generally there is some skewing towards one end or the other, usually towards blue, but not always, and this tends to be pretty minor. The activity spectrum also varies from coral to coral and even in the same coral over time. In other words, there is no single ideal spectrum for a mixed tank.

Also another point that seems to be misunderstood is that the activity spectrum simply represents the likelihood that a given photon will be absorbed- not how useful it is for photosynthesis after it's absorbed. All photons are relatively equal in that regard. The activity spectrum is really only relevant when the ability to collect photons is the rate-limiting step. In other words, it's important when photosynthesis is running below the maximum rate.

As far as efficiency goes, yes, the corals might absorb a higher percentage of the photons in the blue spectrum than the red, but once they're absorbed, a blue photon or a red one are equivalent in their ability to perform photosynthesis. The extra energy carried by the blue photon actually has to be purged as heat or fluorescence to make it equivalent to a red photon, so that energy is essentially lost. Since that extra energy that's being lost is ultimately coming from the electricity you're paying for, I'm not sure that it actually ends up being any more efficient in terms of energy use.

So what does all this mean? Well in theory, if you used a bluer light you would usually have slightly higher photosynthesis than a redder light with the same PAR, but the difference would be negligible. To get the best growth though you would simply provide saturating light intensity and the actual spectrum of the light has very little to do with that. In the real world, we're paying to produce that PAR and it costs more to do it towards the blue end. Since blue photons are more energetic, you get less of them per given energy input, therefore less PAR. This is the reason bluer bulbs tend to be lower in PAR.

Thanks. So actually a bulb with a spectrum shaped similarly to that of an actinic bulb, but with its peak around 650 nm or so would produce the most photosynthetic energy per unit energy fed into the lights? Or would it be preferable to have a broad-spectrum bulb to feed all the various pigment types and have them photosynthesizing in parallel? (I'm assuming here that the corals are producing enough CO2 to make light the limiting reagent.) I know you said there's no ideal spectrum that can be applied to all corals; but if the absorption spectra are fairly similar for the most part, I would think there would be a lighting scheme that would be optimal for that generic absorption spectrum--and therefore approaching optimal on average.
 
there is an optimal lighting scheme... it called 20k radiums, 14k ushio, giesmann actininc+, natural sunlight etc. etc. it is the one that is preferred by the aquarist. if you like actinics only, i guess then, based on the information presented here, it is possible to achieve growth and good coral health with actinics only. while some actually may be more efficient or better than others, i believe that a optimal average is obtainable by most if not all lighting designed for reef tanks.
 
The "generic absorption spectrum" would be roughly a flat line across the entire PAR spectrum. If you were looking for the greatest energy efficiency you would probably do best to use the bulb with the highest PAR/watt since the difference between the saturating intensity from the blue end to the red end is likely to be pretty small on average and once the photons are absorbed, their color makes no difference in their ability to perform photosynthesis.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13215522#post13215522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
AFAIK, the PAR scale is "weighted" for photosynthesis...now I'm not sure how accurately it is weighted. But, even if it were accurately weight for ChA, it would be different for ChB, as well as all of the other compounds photosynthesizing.

The ONLY reason that the 100w 600nm bulb would have more available radiation than the 100w 420nm bulb is that it is easier for a bulb to produce the higher wavelengths...hence why a 20K MH will have less PAR than a 10K. The PAR difference has niothing to do with spectrum, only how effectively a bulb can produce blue.

but really, your comparison using watts is fairly useless as we are discussing PAR itself, not watts of power/PAR ratios. If you look at PAR and spectrum ONLY, you will find that PAR is PAR is PAR across the spectral range from 420nm-710nm. Like I said earlier, PAR (remember, the P is for photosynthetic ;)) is geared toward the spectral curve that photosynthesis occurs (in a broad sense, covering many photosynthetic compounds).
zoanuts.com they use all actinic on there frag tanks or at least all blue spectrum bulbs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13252822#post13252822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by second_decimal
does this mean that actinics can possibly contributing to algea growth?
Yes--they emit light that's readily absorbed by chlorophyll and some other photosynthetic pigments.
 
+1 for what Mike has said.

While not technically irrelevant (especially at low intensities), light spectrum is darn close to irrelevant in terms of promoting photosynthesis in corals. PAR, however, is highly relevant. The action spectra of zoox. do tend to have a broad "peak" from the cyan through violet: ~400-500 nm and another smaller peak in the red/orange: ~650-700 nm, but they absorb light for photosynthesis within the entire range of 400-700 nm (and even slightly outside that range). Any differences between using an actinic/blue bulb and a white bulb of equal intensity are going to be negligible for our purposes. Both will work equally well. Of course, it is rarely if ever the case that "blue" bulbs and "white" bulbs tend to produce similar amounts of light...
 
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