Guess the Phosphate level
- Thread starter Thales
- Start date
sensei
New member
I have a permanent 90g fishless tank for coral quarentine and I am able to have NO3 of 2.5ppm, and PO4 of 0.1ppm just dosing coral powder food 3 times per week. acros are maintaning color and seem not to mind being fishless and nutrients are in tank without dosing chemicals.
I would preffer to add coral food.
sensei
New member
Thales,
wow, excelent growth for only 2 years. and during this 2 year period N and P have been this high?
do you happen to remember how many hours of Metal Halide per day did you gave your tank?
@TMZ, you may not recall but we have both discussed carbon dosing at length years ago. I am a huge supporter and I have seen the results you talk about. Increased sponge growth especially. I know add vinegar to my top off Kalk and that is my sole carbon source. If balances well for me. When I removed my fish recently in a newish system for treatment and the system is now fallow I have to add nitrates. When I did this I noticed my phosphates dropped like a rock. I have since removed GFO all together. I also have two MarienPure blocks in my sump. I try to maintain a trace amount of PO4 and about 5ppm NO3. Any lower and my corals suffer and get pale, higher and algae growth takes off.
Hi,
Glad you are happy with it .
Organic carbon dosing is one way but not the only way for every aquarium . High nutrient systems may be fine for some, obviously. I do prefer ehtanol and acetic aacid dosing i and have been doing it for 8 years ( said 7 earlier) and have had sustained coral vibrancy with it over that time ;so I'm not inclined to change but always seek opportunities for improvement.
Some argue the Redfield ratio( 116C:16N:1C, IIRC ) is a guide ; I don't think it is ; nor do I know a precise optimal ratio for phosphorus vs nitrogen in a given reef tank.
I use sodium nitrate very sparingly form time to time, every week or two . ( 1 tsp for 650 gallons) raises it from undetectable to barely detectable ,barely a tinge of pink viewed from the side on the Salifert test ( still less than a 1ppm reading, typically it reads around 0.2) PO4 does decline a bit after doing that. Several do add Seachem flourish phosphate sparingly as a phosphate source in case of a real deficiency usually evident from coral paling coupled with zero readings ; . I have not. I do not use gfo though. Food will add phosphate but adds nitrogen and carbon too. Raising the phosphate if it is really a limiting nutrient should enable more nitrogen uptake.
Hi,
Glad you are happy with it .
Organic carbon dosing is one way but not the only way for every aquarium . High nutrient systems may be fine for some, obviously. I do prefer ehtanol and acetic aacid dosing i and have been doing it for 8 years ( said 7 earlier) and have had sustained coral vibrancy with it over that time ;so I'm not inclined to change but always seek opportunities for improvement.
Some argue the Redfield ratio( 116C:16N:1C, IIRC ) is a guide ; I don't think it is ; nor do I know a precise optimal ratio for phosphorus vs nitrogen in a given reef tank.
I use sodium nitrate very sparingly form time to time, every week or two . ( 1 tsp for 650 gallons) raises it from undetectable to barely detectable ,barely a tinge of pink viewed from the side on the Salifert test ( still less than a 1ppm reading, typically it reads around 0.2) PO4 does decline a bit after doing that. Several do add Seachem flourish phosphate sparingly as a phosphate source in case of a real deficiency usually evident from coral paling coupled with zero readings ; . I have not. I do not use gfo though. Food will add phosphate but adds nitrogen and carbon too. Raising the phosphate if it is really a limiting nutrient should enable more nitrogen uptake.
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Thanks Tom! I am responding to this because it is a hobby for me.This would be a really interesting thing to get numbers on. Most of the time, it turns out that anecdote like this is often 50/50 which makes it difficult to believe. There are lots of reports of it working, but there are also lots of reports of it not. We see the same for ATS, Microbubbles, bio pellets and more. That kind of distribution makes it seem like the effect may be from something else. Maybe it is time to do an actual survey. Hmmm.....
Thanks for the discussion!
I'm not sure a survey would show much and would be difficult to construct to provide anything meaningful. I find it more informative to study the individual anecdotes and relevant papers on the biology and chemistry involved for plausible conjecture rather than chase a number via some sort of survey considering all the external variables and a tendency toward testimonials My perception is vodka and vinegar reduce phosphate; more so early in the process than they do nitrate in tanks where nitrate is high to start with. You see it differently and that's fine for you and your tank. I stared this discussion with the phrase tanks are different.
Thales
Active member
Just to clarify, I have no idea what to think because there is very little data either early in the process or later. My perception is that the anecdotes don't point to anything definitive in any direction, which is why I am kind of desperate for any kind of data. In my mind a survey might shed some light on the instances of anecdote as people tend to remember the stories that confirm their feelings on the matter and forget the ones that don't.
Thales
Active member
You betcha.
Roughly the same, with roughly the same ramp up. The leds on first, the radiums on next and the 10 or 14 k on after that.
Thales
Active member
If it were me in that situation I would add a lot more food before adding KNO3
Excellent growth in 2 yrs, just wondering with such high phosphate levels, how brittle are you acros? I ran my tank at what I thought were high phosphates 0.3, but found that the coral skeletons of my acros were very brittle, others like monti's and styles didn't seem to be brittle at all, I also had very good growth. Have since decided to reduce phosphate levels and see if the skeletons change..
Thales
Active member
Not brittle at all. Before, when the phosphate was even higher the PPT was as strong as any acro I ever seen in captivity or the wild.
But also, and this is covered in the talk and article, these corals are supposed to be breakable, that is kind of their job. And different corals have different robustness.
But also, and this is covered in the talk and article, these corals are supposed to be breakable, that is kind of their job. And different corals have different robustness.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
This is what I always tell people. Besides it also provide the hundreds of food traces that should be available too. Feeding more helps "reset" the ratios.
sensei
New member
Thales,
how many G4s do you have over your tank? XR30Pros G4s?
can I know the dimensions of your tank?
thanks
bif24701
New member
I do agree but as I said I had been feeding daily and still zero. Only had to add a tiny amount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just to clarify, I have no idea what to think because there is very little data either early in the process or later. My perception is that the anecdotes don't point to anything definitive in any direction, which is why I am kind of desperate for any kind of data. In my mind a survey might shed some light on the instances of anecdote as people tend to remember the stories that confirm their feelings on the matter and forget the ones that don't.
Confirmation bias is difficult to account for in the simple surveys typically posted on these boards and I expect would be hard to rule out in any poll on this subject . It and other external variables specific to a given aquarium or aquarist are a bit more discoverable in anecdotal case by case studies with q and a IME. In other words , connecting with those using a specific method and digging in one case at a time may offer insight for a disciplined analyst in assessing the probative value if any of a given anecdote. This is not data either may be more helpful when viewed through a prism tinted with some knowledge of the biology and chemistry involved including relevant published works if any to determine plausibility and perhaps even probablilty of a specific cause and effect.
My perception based on my own experience with organic carbon dosing and other nutrient control methods, anecdotal accounts of others and a myriad of papers is that organic carbon dosing reduces PO4 as the heterotrophic bacteria it supports use it along with nitrogen and carbon . If nitrate was/is the only target a sulfur denitrator might be a better option. If on the other hand the aquarist is unconcerned about nutrient levels and balance then no action is an obvious choice.
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jason2459
Well-known member
I have a couple cases where I have seen a dramatic shift in PO4 due to driving up bacteria counts.
First time was when I first rebuilt my 55 gallon tank with pukani dry rock. My PO4 levels were extremely high. I started experimenting with a new method at the time of providing a carbon source through a pellet form. IO had a patent out in using tiny pellets in the substrate. Another company came out with larger pellets that were being put in mesh bags and some were figuring out how to use a reactor with them.
I tested out a different much cheaper source through using shapelock pellets used by hobiest to form the pha into different forms.
To me it worked well and helped to reduce my PO4 and defeat hair algae. Interesting side note I did not have elevated nitrates at the time and never really have had elevated nitrates.
Second instance where I feel I can say carbon dosing influenced PO4 was when changing my carbon sources. Since using that shapelock worked so well I kept looking into other forms of carbon dosing and landed on dosing just vinegar. I was able to for many years not use GFO at all and keep my PO4 levels around .02 to .09ppm with no concern of nitrates being under 5mg/l as always.
However, about a year ago I changed from dosing just vinegar to a mixture of Vodka and Vinegar using around the same ratio that TMZ uses of 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml Vodka. I adjusted dosage to equate what I was dosing vinegar wise to provide the same amount of a carbon source. My nitrates quickly became undetectable and PO4 dropped and stayed in a range below .02ppm.
I have actually in the past couple months switched back to dosing just vinegar and my nitrates have gone back to around 2.5-5mg/l and phosphates ranging again around .02-.09ppm.
So, take it for what its worth. But we do know bacteria does consume some form of C:N: P. Plus several other minor and trace elements. With the need of other elements to even metabolism them like Na, K, and Mg.
First time was when I first rebuilt my 55 gallon tank with pukani dry rock. My PO4 levels were extremely high. I started experimenting with a new method at the time of providing a carbon source through a pellet form. IO had a patent out in using tiny pellets in the substrate. Another company came out with larger pellets that were being put in mesh bags and some were figuring out how to use a reactor with them.
I tested out a different much cheaper source through using shapelock pellets used by hobiest to form the pha into different forms.
To me it worked well and helped to reduce my PO4 and defeat hair algae. Interesting side note I did not have elevated nitrates at the time and never really have had elevated nitrates.
Second instance where I feel I can say carbon dosing influenced PO4 was when changing my carbon sources. Since using that shapelock worked so well I kept looking into other forms of carbon dosing and landed on dosing just vinegar. I was able to for many years not use GFO at all and keep my PO4 levels around .02 to .09ppm with no concern of nitrates being under 5mg/l as always.
However, about a year ago I changed from dosing just vinegar to a mixture of Vodka and Vinegar using around the same ratio that TMZ uses of 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml Vodka. I adjusted dosage to equate what I was dosing vinegar wise to provide the same amount of a carbon source. My nitrates quickly became undetectable and PO4 dropped and stayed in a range below .02ppm.
I have actually in the past couple months switched back to dosing just vinegar and my nitrates have gone back to around 2.5-5mg/l and phosphates ranging again around .02-.09ppm.
So, take it for what its worth. But we do know bacteria does consume some form of C:N: P. Plus several other minor and trace elements. With the need of other elements to even metabolism them like Na, K, and Mg.
I have a permanent 90g fishless tank for coral quarentine and I am able to have NO3 of 2.5ppm, and PO4 of 0.1ppm just dosing coral powder food 3 times per week. acros are maintaning color and seem not to mind being fishless and nutrients are in tank without dosing chemicals.
I would preffer to add coral food.
Food is my first choice but some favor "nutrient fixing"( balancing N and P and C to prevent a limiting nutrient/see Liebig's law) This approach has been a mainstay for freshwater planted tanks for a long time and may have some useful applications in saltwater aquariums. It seems to be particulary useful, if the goal is to raise only one nutrient . As noted , I do toy with the nitrate side of that a tiny bit from time to time ; never needed to added phosphate though. Sometimes folks can strip it out with gfo or other aggressive treatments.Discontinuing the gfo ,lanthanum or whatever binder is in play coupled with a bit of extra food usually fixes it but if one want's to toy with phosphate additions the Seachem product is a reasonable choice.
I feed heavily, btw and I'm curious about your favorite coral food.
I would preffer to add coral food.
Food is my first choice but some favor "nutrient fixing"( balancing N and P and C to prevent a limiting nutrient/see Liebig's law) This approach has been a mainstay for freshwater planted tanks for a long time and may have some useful applications in saltwater aquariums. It seems to be particulary useful, if the goal is to raise only one nutrient . As noted , I do toy with the nitrate side of that a tiny bit from time to time ; never needed to added phosphate though. Sometimes folks can strip it out with gfo or other aggressive treatments.Discontinuing the gfo ,lanthanum or whatever binder is in play coupled with a bit of extra food usually fixes it but if one want's to toy with phosphate additions the Seachem product is a reasonable choice.
I feed heavily, btw and I'm curious about your favorite coral food.
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sensei
New member
Thales,
do the 2 XHO reefbrite strips give you something you like now that you run them with the G4s? I ask becuase I understand when you used them with the Halides, but now with the G4s, what is the purpose of the strips?
or you are using them because you already had them?
do you run the strip just in dusk and dawn?
blue strips correct?
Thanks
