Guide to setup a Quarantine Tank (QT).

[borg1of2]

We are not having good luck with our QT. We have lost three fish now, with what I believe is because of inadvertent cycling of the QT. It's a basic 10 Gallon with an HOB. We are using the filters Are sized and made for the HOB. The first time things worked good. Used a filter with no carbon and ran two weeks with Prazipro. We then replaced the filter with one that had carbon to remove the carbon and let the filter stay in the tank.

We moved the first set of fish out and replaced the carbon filter with one with no carbon and got our next of fish (Barlett, McCosker Wrasse, and Multi Color Angel) a few days later. We lost the first wrasse and we weren't sure what happened. A few days later we added a Kole Tank and the tank was doing good for two weeks. I then did a water change 20% (2 Gallons) AND replaced the filter as the water was cloudy and the filter looked really dirty. The next day I noticed the Tank and the Angel breathing heavy and they both died the next day. We found Amonia at .25 and Nitrate at 100, so realized that tank had cycled or was cycling.

My struggle here is that I feel the filter needs to be replaced, but how do I do it without cycling the tank. Reading this thread indicates one approach is to put a filter in the sump of our DT, but am concerned that I might cycle that tank. This didn't happen when I switched to a filter with carbon, but either I got lucky or the carbon minimized the cycle. So, what are the recommendations here and also what should I have on hand if the cycle does start to prevent the Amonia from getting too high. I just don't want to loose any more fish which was the original reason I did the QT.

 

[Dr. Reef]

ok i read through all the previous posts and communications between us to catch up and see whats going on.
anyways. ur problem is cycle and filters.
everytime u take a filter out and replace it with a new one u throw the tank into mini cycle.
10gal tank doesnt have anything for bacteria to reside in except filter and when it gets dirty u are replacing it and thus removing the biological filter as well with it.
this will explaing fish doing ok the first time and then when u replaced filter next few days to week fish died and start breathing heavy and u register ammonia.
nitrates are not that big issue for fish but regular water changes will do the job keeping them under 100.

my advice to you at this point is to stop throwing ur money away in fish that will die on u. lets fix the qt first and get it cycled properly....
these are the step i would suggest you to take.

1. if u have any fish take them back to lfs.
2. drain and clean the qt tank with vinegar water and give it a good rinse.
3. forget filters completely and lets move on to ceramic rings. 1 liter of rings are good for 50-60 gals of water. take the filters out dont use them just place the ceramic rings in media bags and place them as many as u can in the HOB. for extra surface area after filling the HOB up u can place ceramic rings in media socks and place them inside the tank near high flow area.
4. cycle the qt all over again with a shrimp from deli.
5. once u have the tank cycled do not add too many fish. 1 fish first then wait a week and add another.
6. after adding the first fish check for ammonia and dont dose anything for a week and just keep checking for ammonia.
i have a pretty good feeling if u follow this u wont run into any cycle problems.
u never have to change the media ever. if u run prazipro then do water change and run carbon to take it out. if u run copper then just run carbon and water changes and u will be fine. ceramic rings dont get effected by cupramine and they will continue to do their job.
adding too many fish to such a small tank can throw a tank in mini cycle due to simple fact that biological filter is only setup to the same ratio as ammonia being produced.
bacteria live in the same ratio as ammonia. so right out of cycle there is just enough bacteria to handle a small fish or a small bio load. but if u were to place 3 decent size fish bacteria will not be able to process all the ammonia thus leaving toxins for fish to subject to till the time bacteria multiply and grow enough.
please let me know if u need more clarification and hope u have a safer qt from this point and on.
Good luck.

 

[Dr. Reef]

if u do decide to go filter route u will need to keep extra filters in sump of ur main tank for atleast 3 weeks for them to harbor bacteria and still that is no guarantee if replacing with such filter will not throw ur qt into a mini cycle. as no one knows how much bacteria ur importing on the new filters. longer they stay in ur sump chances are much higher for large colonies of bacteria on them.

 

[borg1of2]

1. if u have any fish take them back to lfs.
2. drain and clean the qt tank with vinegar water and give it a good rinse.
3. forget filters completely and lets move on to ceramic rings. 1 liter of rings are good for 50-60 gals of water. take the filters out dont use them just place the ceramic rings in media bags and place them as many as u can in the HOB. for extra surface area after filling the HOB up u can place ceramic rings in media socks and place them inside the tank near high flow area.
4. cycle the qt all over again with a shrimp from deli.
5. once u have the tank cycled do not add too many fish. 1 fish first then wait a week and add another.
6. after adding the first fish check for ammonia and dont dose anything for a week and just keep checking for ammonia.
i have a pretty good feeling if u follow this u wont run into any cycle problems.
u never have to change the media ever. if u run prazipro then do water change and run carbon to take it out. if u run copper then just run carbon and water changes and u will be fine. ceramic rings dont get effected by cupramine and they will continue to do their job.
please let me know if u need more clarification and hope u have a safer qt from this point and on.
Good luck.

Thanks

Unfortunately we can't take the fish back to LFS, store policy, so I thnk I will try to stick with this quarantine of the one remaining fish and either go with one filter for the period and maybe put a filter in the DT sump.

Does water changes using DT water help when replacing the filter?

Your plan states to "run carbon". How is this done with the HOB having the rings?

Why does the tank need to be taken down and cleaned?

Do ceramic rings provide mechanical filtration? Or just biological?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Does water changes using DT water help when replacing the filter?

Your plan states to "run carbon". How is this done with the HOB having the rings?

Why does the tank need to be taken down and cleaned?

Do ceramic rings provide mechanical filtration? Or just biological?

changing water with DT water will not help much as bacteria does not live in water most resides in Live rock and some in sand.
if u cant take fish back then either do water changes leaving the filter in HOB and not changing it any more. do water changes or use amquel or prime to keep ammonia at bay.
running carbon can be done in media socks placed in high flow area or carbon canister reactors.
if u were to start over without filter and go with ceramic rings, breaking/cleaning the tank is just an insurance that if there was any parasites u dont infect the new coming fish which would defeat the purpose of setting up a qt tank. this is just a precautionary thing.
ceramic rings only provide biological filteration in reality. they do block some debris which will be settled in ur HOB under the rings. i usually clean it out when i am in between fish. leaving rings submerged in tank at all times while i clean the HOB.

 

[borg1of2]

changing water with DT water will not help much as bacteria does not live in water most resides in Live rock and some in sand.
if u cant take fish back then either do water changes leaving the filter in HOB and not changing it any more. do water changes or use amquel or prime to keep ammonia at bay.
running carbon can be done in media socks placed in high flow area or carbon canister reactors.
if u were to start over without filter and go with ceramic rings, breaking/cleaning the tank is just an insurance that if there was any parasites u dont infect the new coming fish which would defeat the purpose of setting up a qt tank. this is just a precautionary thing.
ceramic rings only provide biological filteration in reality. they do block some debris which will be settled in ur HOB under the rings. i usually clean it out when i am in between fish. leaving rings submerged in tank at all times while i clean the HOB.

We have already done two 30% water changes and Amonia is back at 0 (<.25 using Salifert). Nitrates are down to 25.

I'll have to do more research on the type of carbon and sock wud be needed. I don't really want to go the whole reactor route for a QT.

So, what is used for mechanical filtration in these basic QT setups?

Another question. Should I start the Prazipro two week period followed by Cupramine (Tang looked like it did have ick) or just add Cupramine and finish out the QT period?

 

[Dr. Reef]

We have already done two 30% water changes and Amonia is back at 0 (<.25 using Salifert). Nitrates are down to 25.

I'll have to do more research on the type of carbon and sock wud be needed. I don't really want to go the whole reactor route for a QT.

So, what is used for mechanical filtration in these basic QT setups?

Another question. Should I start the Prazipro two week period followed by Cupramine (Tang looked like it did have ick) or just add Cupramine and finish out the QT period?

good water changes will keep things at bay. i hardly use any mechanical filteration in qt as its mostly fish in and fish out and i do 100% water change and clean insides of HOB out in between fish.
if i am not mistaken u did run 1 week atleast of prazipro. if ur tang has ich i would switch gears to cupramine but remember most ammonia kits will pick it up as ammonia so get ammonia badge or do water change 30% daily and test copper and keep it at 0.5ppm.
let me know how it goes,

 

[borg1of2]

good water changes will keep things at bay. i hardly use any mechanical filteration in qt as its mostly fish in and fish out and i do 100% water change and clean insides of HOB out in between fish.
if i am not mistaken u did run 1 week atleast of prazipro. if ur tang has ich i would switch gears to cupramine but remember most ammonia kits will pick it up as ammonia so get ammonia badge or do water change 30% daily and test copper and keep it at 0.5ppm.
let me know how it goes,

Yes, I was a little over a week running with Prazipro when this happened. We think the Tang, which is one of the fish that died, did have ick, so we will move over to Cupramine. We do have an ammonia badge and will monitor it for increase and water change as needed.

Recommendation how long to run with Copper and steps to finish out the QT period?

 

[Dr. Reef]

sure. here is what i do:
start cupramine dose and break the dose over 3-4 days. i know bottle says dose the recommended amount in 1-2 days but i strongly suggest breaking it further down to 3-4 days.
once u have the right dose in check with test kits and hold 0.5 strength for 3 weeks. after 3 weeks u can run carbon or cuprasorb or simply water changes to get copper out. then observe for another 2 weeks. if u see no signs of ich then ur ready for transfer.
now in ur case ammonia may be a problem so u will need to do water changes. with each water change u will need to redose cupramine.
say u take out 30% water. then re dose 30% of the original cupramine dose to compensate. but please use a test kit to measure strength correctly.
i would wait a few days and see if ammonia problem goes away before starting cupramine and dont change filters from now on till u have no fish in tank for next round.

 

[tassod]

Bnumair,

Today is day 7 of my prazi pro treatment and my powder brown is doing fine and also eating well. I see no visible signs of any parasites or stress on the fish. I am going to be starting Hypo. Can you go over again on how you perform it? I do have an ATO hooked up to my QT

 

[Dr. Reef]

Bnumair,

Today is day 7 of my prazi pro treatment and my powder brown is doing fine and also eating well. I see no visible signs of any parasites or stress on the fish. I am going to be starting Hypo. Can you go over again on how you perform it? I do have an ATO hooked up to my QT

good to hear everything is going great.
ok now 1 week of prazi pro is over so u can do some water change and run carbon for few days. then just take out about 0.5-1 gal of saltwater out and let ATO replace it with fresh ro/di water. this should over several times reduce the salinity.
u can reduce 2-3 points in salinity in morning then a few more in evening and in next 2-3 days reduce the salinity from 1.025 to 1.009.
u want to hold 1.009 for next 4 weeks if there is no sign of ich. then slowly raise it back up to match the main tank.
if u observe ich then wait in hypo as long as last ich has fallen off and breathing has gone back to normal.
let me know if u need more clarification.

 

[tassod]

good to hear everything is going great.
ok now 1 week of prazi pro is over so u can do some water change and run carbon for few days. then just take out about 0.5-1 gal of saltwater out and let ATO replace it with fresh ro/di water. this should over several times reduce the salinity.
u can reduce 2-3 points in salinity in morning then a few more in evening and in next 2-3 days reduce the salinity from 1.025 to 1.009.
u want to hold 1.009 for next 4 weeks if there is no sign of ich. then slowly raise it back up to match the main tank.
if u observe ich then wait in hypo as long as last ich has fallen off and breathing has gone back to normal.
let me know if u need more clarification.

I've been doing some reading on hypo and i've seen concern expressed over watching PH during this treatment. Do i need to really keep an eye on that...if so, can i use my alk soda ash solution that i use in my main DT or do i have to use baking soda?

 

[Dr. Reef]

i have never paid any attention to pH due to a simple fact that my ro/di water is 8.1 from city water to begin with.
soda ash will increase alk and not pH, well temporarily. there is no pH buffer in saltwater they are all alk buffers with temporary effect on pH.
as long as ur pH is 7.8 to 8.4 range u will be fine. at worse u can dose a little kalk.

 

[borg1of2]

Was looking at getting carbon for use and found on Dr Foster a product called Ammonia Neutralizer. What is the consensus with this product as it relates to added protection for a QT that seems to be susceptible to things that cause Ammonia to rise/spike?

 

[Dr. Reef]

such products just going to delay the cycle process anyways as long as ur not using any medications it should be fine as a preventive measure for ammonia. but once copper is involved then such products can cause problems.

 

[Dr. Reef]

This is what my Dual tank QT looks like. someone had pm'ed to post a pic so here it is.

Description:

20gal Tank drains into a 40gal tank. 40gal hooked to a mag 9 that pumps to a chiller then back to 20 completing the loop. 300watt titanium heater. and 2 simple T5 24" fixtures with 50/50 bulbs on timer. for 4 hrs per day. And ofcourse an ATO.
both have HOB filters. on 40gal i have dual bio wheel and on 20 i have aquaclear 70 HOB.
both HOB have just ceramic rings filled in them.
I dont have any other filteration or filters. i just clean the insides of the HOB out in-between fish. (leaving ceramic rings submerged in tank water at all times)

in concept:

in reality:

 

[fairladyZ]

So i kept my HOB filter and bio-wheel in my DT Sump for 15 days and finally took them out and got my QT tank up and running. Let it run for a day and tested and got 0 amm, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrates.. So now i'm not sure if it has even started a cycle yet? i used ro/di salt mix from LFS that i also have in my DT, i threw a little frozen chunk of mysis shrimp lastnight and tested again today and still nothing across the board. Is it all 0 cause nothing is in there or is it just not starting a cycle?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Just to be sure throw in a deli shrimp in the tank and check for ammonia tomorrow if still 0 then ur tqnk is ready.

 

[fairladyZ]

what exactly is a deli shrimp? i have a bag of frozen shrimp in the freezer that are pre-cooked with tail in the freezer would that work? or you talking about a raw still grey shrimp from the store deli?

 

[Dr. Reef]

yes frozen sea food or frozen shrimp will work. it will decay adn release ammonia. if u have no ammonia or nitrites then ur tank is cycled.